Pug Colouring

[minimax]

Yes, a bit on the black/hybrid black was being discussed in a thread in Health where I was asking about my boys coat and that link was given too.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

Yes, a bit on the black/hybrid black was being discussed in a thread in Health where I was asking about my boys coat and that link was given too.

I saw that thread but I must have missed the link.

I wouldn't want to be a Pug breeder if I couldn't see a test to make sure that the Pug was a pure fawn with the clear sable allele.

eta

And that's just the coat colour test. I would be 1000 times more rigorous about the health tests!

Edited November 11, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

I have just written emails to the Pug Club of UK and America, the Kennel Club of UK, that VetGen coat colour testing service, as well as the Pug breeder with the genetic coat colour information.

Hopefully I will get some answers soon!

Edited November 11, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[RuralPug]

Please don't put colour ahead of health, conformation and type.

Good breeders are trying to get everything right, and sometimes to "set" one trait in a line you may need to sacrifice another and then try to get that sacrificed trait added later without losing the preferred "set" that you already have. This can be a very long term and frustrating process because of the arrangement of genes on chromosomes which can link traits in unlikely combinations or modify a wanted trait in an unwanted manner - a study of basic genetics will put you on the correct path.

The illustration that you have used for clear coat is in my opinion undesirable as it has taken "clear" to an unwanted extreme losing the required black pigmentation in nails, trace, pencilling and forehead wrinkle definition. I would class that particular colour as "cream" which in my opinion is not permitted.

IMO, the preferred colours in Pugs are defined thusly:

Black - a jet black with a blue/black sheen.The toenails are all black, the eyes are dark.

Apricot - a golden tan colour, with clearly defined mask and forehead wrinkes, with or without forehead thumbprint, all in black. In the true apricot, the ears, trace and pencilling are chocolate. The toenails are all black, the eyes are dark.

Apricot Fawn - a fawn with apricot tonings. The clearly defined mask, forehead wrinkles, thumbprint if present, ears, trace, pencilling and nails are all black. The eyes are dark.

Fawn - a fawn with clearly defined mask, forehead wrinkles, thumbprint if present, ears, trace, pencilling and nails are all black. The eyes are dark.

Silver Fawn - fawn with silver tonings. The clearly defined mask, forehead wrinkles, thumbprint if present, ears, trace, pencilling and nails are all black. The eyes are dark.

Silver - a dilute blue/grey colour similar to dark chinchilla. The clearly defined mask, forehead wrinkles, thumbprint if present, ears, trace, pencilling and nails are all black. The eyes are dark.

Undesirable Colours Include:

White patches - (S locus gone mad) More noticeable on a black but can also be seen in fawns - a small white (no larger than 20 cent piece on adult) spot on the chest is allowed, large white patches or chest blazes or white toes are strongly undesirable.

"Rusty" - a black with apricot tonings. Can range from a minor bit of reddish hair on the rear flanks to extensive reddish hair throughout the coat - extreme rust extends over the whole body except for mask, saddle and legs.

"Smutty" - a fawn with too much black in the coat. Can range from a minor bit of black tipped hair on the chest and flanks, to extensive black hair throughout - extreme smut extends over the whole body except for a black mask, saddle and legs. Often accompanied by a white spot or blaze on the chest. It is difficult to tell where the mask etc. ends and the body colour begins.

Blue - a strong blue/grey colour. Usually accompanied by whole black heads, very wide black saddle and black legs.

Cream - a pale body colour where the trace, pencilling and wrinkle definitions are usually missing. The mask and ears are black. The nails are usually clear.

Albino - complete lack of any colour, resulting in white hair, red eyes and clear nails.

Light coloured eyes are always a fault. Non black toenails are a fault.

The common colours in Australian showrings these days are in order (IMO): Fawn, Apricot Fawn, Black, Smutty Fawn, Rusty Black, Silver Fawn and Cream. I have not seen a Silver in 45 years, I suspect the genetics for true Silver have long been lost. There are Blue lines in the US and also in Central Europe.

Again, it is important to remember that colour is not the be all and end all. From memory, the late Susan Graham Weall's chart of points for judging pugs (a guide to how much weight to give each feature) totalled a maximum 100 points, the maximum points that could be awarded for colour and pigmentation is 25.

[dancinbcs]

What an incredibly long winded way of saying black or sable with a black mask, as genetically they are all one or the other.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

Please don't put colour ahead of health, conformation and type

I'm not sure where you're coming from but it sounds like a really crappy space.

Thanks, everyone, for your replies - especially to dancinbcs. You've given me a lot to think about :)

Edited November 11, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[minimax]

Please don't put colour ahead of health, conformation and type

I'm not sure where you're coming from but it sounds like a really crappy space.

Wtf?

[raz]

Please don't put colour ahead of health, conformation and type

I'm not sure where you're coming from but it sounds like a really crappy space.

Wtf?

Wondering that myself, max. I thougt ruralP's post was really interesting.

[~Anne~]

Please don't put colour ahead of health, conformation and type

I'm not sure where you're coming from but it sounds like a really crappy space.

Wtf?

Wondering that myself, max. I thougt ruralP's post was really interesting.

Me too!

Good grief people. Yes dancinbcs, many have possibly realised that is the case but you too are coming across as rude with your post.

I learnt more in RuralPug's post than I have for a while regarding coat colours of the pug. I think we've determine d already that they are variations of fawn but RuralPug has explained just how those colours are represented and accepted in the show/breeding world.

[minimax]

Please don't put colour ahead of health, conformation and type

I'm not sure where you're coming from but it sounds like a really crappy space.

Wtf?

Wondering that myself, max. I thougt ruralP's post was really interesting.

And knowledgeable, with effort gone into explaining things. Not deserving of that rude response.

[raz]

If maeby is upset about the statement ruralP made that was quoted, well that tends to be the mutual motto of ethical breeders. They say it in here all the time and I personally appreciate seeing them drum it in.

[minimax]

If maeby is upset about the statement ruralP made that was quoted, well that tends to be the mutual motto of ethical breeders. They say it in here all the time and I personally appreciate seeing them drum it in.

Definitely. If there are any doubts about that statement, go spend some time with some "blue" dogs of almost any breed to see what happens when you place colour ahead of everything else.

[Brandiandwe]

Ditto above. Not a breeder but as someone who is seriously considering a puppy, I wouldn't want to buy from someone who bred only for colour or who placed colour above the other considerations (health, temperament etc). Furthermore, I wouldn't buy from a breeder who sold me the pup I wanted (because of the colour or whatever) in place of another pup who would be a more appropriate match for my existing pack and needs.

[megan_]

Why is breeding for one colour frowned upon, but breeding to avoid a colour not okay? I can think of many factors to consider before colour. There are plenty of badly bred, pretty pugs around. I would rather select pugs with great breathing, great structure regardless of what colour they were.

[Rebanne]

Please don't put colour ahead of health, conformation and type

I'm not sure where you're coming from but it sounds like a really crappy space.

Thanks, everyone, for your replies - especially to dancinbcs. You've given me a lot to think about :)

You have a very, very long way to go if you really want to be an ethical breeder, a very long way. So far you are sounding like a BYB who is only interested in breeding for colour.

[blakkjackal]

Just my personal opinion, but I would never buy from a breeder that focuses on a single colour. In my opinion colour is pretty much irrelevant (apart from the ones associated with health problems) and anyone breeding for a certain colour is breeding for the wrong reasons.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

What a load of bullsh*t.

[minimax]

What a load of bullsh*t.

Which part? The part from those with much more experience than you in the subject?

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

What a load of bullsh*t.

Which part? The part from those with much more experience than you in the subject?

No, minimax. I meant that it's a load of bullsh*t that I'm being accused of having no ethics and being a back yard breeder because I asked a question about coat colour genetics.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[megan_]

No one accused you of being unethical? Rebanne's post might have been a bit harsh, however your response to RuralPugs very informative post was very harsh too. Her post was actually really good and reflected the things you should consider when breeding dogs - coat is very low down on the list for a companion breed like pugs.

People are saying that it isn't good for the breed to breed for colour. If someone posted here that they wanted to breed blue staffords and wanted to ensure that the entire litter was blue, what do you think the response would be?

If you focus on colour, you immediately limit the gene pool of dogs that you can breed from. What if the very best pug around has a "silver" coat? Would you not breed from them simply because you don't like the coat colour?