Pug Colouring

[trinabean]

No one accused you of being unethical? Rebanne's post might have been a bit harsh, however your response to RuralPugs very informative post was very harsh too. Her post was actually really good and reflected the things you should consider when breeding dogs - coat is very low down on the list for a companion breed like pugs.

People are saying that it isn't good for the breed to breed for colour. If someone posted here that they wanted to breed blue staffords and wanted to ensure that the entire litter was blue, what do you think the response would be?

If you focus on colour, you immediately limit the gene pool of dogs that you can breed from. What if the very best pug around has a "silver" coat? Would you not breed from them simply because you don't like the coat colour?

Yes, RuralPug shared her knowledge of the breed in a good, informative post MF. She didn't accuse you of being unethical. She made a plea to you to look beyond coat colour.

As someone heavily involved with rescue, I'm sure RuralPug sees more than her fair share of unethically/ badly bred dogs.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

I'm sorry, I didn't intend to be rude. I react very badly when people accuse me of doing something that I'm not. It triggers my stuff (and it takes me a long time to understand what is going on with me). Right now, I'm still not sure what that is, and I'm struggling and in a state of mental distress. I thought RuralPug was accusing me of being a bad person, being up to no good and doing something really bad towards Pugs.

I can't explain it any better than that right now, I'm sorry.

[Leah82]

Just my personal opinion, but I would never buy from a breeder that focuses on a single colour. In my opinion colour is pretty much irrelevant (apart from the ones associated with health problems) and anyone breeding for a certain colour is breeding for the wrong reasons.

I'm interesting in this statement - probably a bit off topic. I know the idea of being a registered breeders is to continue and better the breed. If you have a recessive colour that is not considered a fault in the dog and you don't have breeders with an interest in keeping that specific colour in the gene pool then don't you risk making that colour practically extinct and therefore wouldn't that be detrimental to the breed?

Just a quick example, you can see my Liver Roan cocker spaniel below. Liver Roan while acceptable in the breed standard is rarely found in the show circuit these days. The Cocker Spaniel Club of Victoria website doesn't even include liver in their list of cocker spaniel colours. If there aren't any breeders with an interest to continue the colour then it will likely end up being a rare throw back colour that is considered a fault.

[Rebanne]

Just my personal opinion, but I would never buy from a breeder that focuses on a single colour. In my opinion colour is pretty much irrelevant (apart from the ones associated with health problems) and anyone breeding for a certain colour is breeding for the wrong reasons.

I'm interesting in this statement - probably a bit off topic. I know the idea of being a registered breeders is to continue and better the breed. If you have a recessive colour that is not considered a fault in the dog and you don't have breeders with an interest in keeping that specific colour in the gene pool then don't you risk making that colour practically extinct and therefore wouldn't that be detrimental to the breed?

Just a quick example, you can see my Liver Roan cocker spaniel below. Liver Roan while acceptable in the breed standard is rarely found in the show circuit these days. The Cocker Spaniel Club of Victoria website doesn't even include liver in their list of cocker spaniel colours. If there aren't any breeders with an interest to continue the colour then it will likely end up being a rare throw back colour that is considered a fault.

My favourite colour in my breed is parti colour, white with patches. Whilst it is very unlikely to ever die out, as it is so common, I do breed for the breed first, colour is very much down the line. Colour, is often cosmetic, no real purpose, in a large amount of breeds. Colour can come with problems as well. In your scenario I can't see how it would be detrimental to the breed but it would be sad to lose a colour and you are right that sometime down the track that it could become a fault. It has happened in other breeds that some colours that were in the breed orginally have now become a fault and some breeders have been fighting hard to get that changed. It is very sad that the Cocker Spaniel club web site doesn't include a recognised colour. Maybe you should point that put to them politely?

ETA, the standard says Colours: Various. In self colours no white allowed except on chest. The club site just shows photo's of different colours, maybe they have none of livers or liver roans and might like a photo of your dog to round out their page?

Edited November 12, 2013 by Rebanne

[Dame Aussie]

Please don't put colour ahead of health, conformation and type

I'm not sure where you're coming from but it sounds like a really crappy space.

Wtf?

Wondering that myself, max. I thougt ruralP's post was really interesting.

Me too. I was about to say the same thing, health and temp should come before colour.

This place is getting ridiculous :laugh:

[raz]

I'm sorry, I didn't intend to be rude. I react very badly when people accuse me of doing something that I'm not. It triggers my stuff (and it takes me a long time to understand what is going on with me). Right now, I'm still not sure what that is, and I'm struggling and in a state of mental distress. I thought RuralPug was accusing me of being a bad person, being up to no good and doing something really bad towards Pugs.

I can't explain it any better than that right now, I'm sorry.

Rural pug didnt accuse you of anything, maeby. Just relax a bit; this is a really interesting thread and we're so lucky to have breeders share their knowledge with us.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

If anyone is interested, I got an email reply from the geneticist at VetGen in the USA.

He has offered me two FREE coat colour tests for Pugs (they can be taken with a mouth swab). He is offering this because it would help them to see if their tests are useful for Pug breeders/owners. He asked me if I could take a sample from either two smutty fawn Pugs, ie. Pugs with the ay ag or ay at allele...

...or a sample from one smutty fawn Pug and one clear fawn Pug, ie. a Pug with the ay ay allele. I said that the latter might be hard because smutty fawn Pugs are so common, and I don't think I've ever seen a clear coated Pug.

I'm going to have my Pug tested because he's a smutty fawn. Does anyone else want their Pug tested? They would have to be a smutty fawn or a clear fawn.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[cannibalgoldfish]

Apparently (forgot where I read it now, dagnabbit) shiba inu breeders tried to breed out the stray sprinkle of random black hairs on the reds, trying for bright clear red with no black at all in the coat.(like a few in the tail ect) It led to dogs loosing the vibrancy of the red and becoming paler and more washed out. From I remember they needed the black to improve the stronger red colour.

Seeing as they should have black nails, noses, eye rims ect plus most red pups are born with dark coats and a black mask, It seemed a bit silly to get picky about a few black hairs..., but that might just be me? :D

I don't know enough about their genetics, so couldn't tell you what genes are involved I could google, and started to but sidetracked..... *Ohhhh! shiney thing!*

Anyways, would breeding for clear fawn pugs have the same problem? Would they get too pale and washed out?

Edited November 12, 2013 by cannibalgoldfish

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

Apparently (forgot where I read it now, dagnabbit) shiba inu breeders tried to breed out the stray sprinkle of random black hairs on the reds, trying for bright clear red with no black at all in the coat.(like a few in the tail ect) It led to dogs loosing the vibrancy of the red and becoming paler and more washed out. From I remember they needed the black to improve the stronger red colour.

Seeing as they should have black nails, noses, eye rims ect plus most red pups are born with dark coats and a black mask, It seemed a bit silly to get picky about a few black hairs..., but that might just be me? :D

I don't know enough about their genetics, so couldn't tell you what genes are involved I could google, and started to but sidetracked..... *Ohhhh! shiney thing!*

Anyways, would breeding for clear fawn pugs have the same problem? Would they get too pale and washed out?

That's a good question. By the way, I only chose the photo of the clear fawn Pug for his coat colour. I didn't even notice his nails or ears etc until RuralPug mentioned it.

I feel like I've made a faux pas by starting this topic, like it's taboo or something. I don't understand how talking about it means you're putting it before something else??

I'm so confident about my own personal integrity (and my own high standards) that the thought of putting colour before something else would never cross my mind. It just wouldn't even enter my brain! In fact, I can't even imagine thinking like that!

[Roova]

Please don't put colour ahead of health, conformation and type

I'm not sure where you're coming from but it sounds like a really crappy space.

Thanks, everyone, for your replies - especially to dancinbcs. You've given me a lot to think about :)

I don't think there's anything wrong with your topic or questions but your reply here makes it sound like you're having a go at someone who suggests health, confirmation and type is of higher priority. At least that's the jist I got...

[minimax]

Apparently (forgot where I read it now, dagnabbit) shiba inu breeders tried to breed out the stray sprinkle of random black hairs on the reds, trying for bright clear red with no black at all in the coat.(like a few in the tail ect) It led to dogs loosing the vibrancy of the red and becoming paler and more washed out. From I remember they needed the black to improve the stronger red colour.

Seeing as they should have black nails, noses, eye rims ect plus most red pups are born with dark coats and a black mask, It seemed a bit silly to get picky about a few black hairs..., but that might just be me? :D

I don't know enough about their genetics, so couldn't tell you what genes are involved I could google, and started to but sidetracked..... *Ohhhh! shiney thing!*

Anyways, would breeding for clear fawn pugs have the same problem? Would they get too pale and washed out?

That's a good question. By the way, I only chose the photo of the clear fawn Pug for his coat colour. I didn't even notice his nails or ears etc until RuralPug mentioned it.

I feel like I've made a faux pas by starting this topic, like it's taboo or something. I don't understand how talking about it means you're putting it before something else??

I'm so confident about my own personal integrity (and my own high standards) that the thought of putting colour before something else would never cross my mind. It just wouldn't even enter my brain! In fact, I can't even imagine thinking like that!

1: Because you were insanely rude to someone who merely bought up the point about putting colour before conformation etc

2: Comments like "I'd only breed if I saw a DNA test that proved they had whatever colour"

3: Not even knowing the breed standard

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

Please don't put colour ahead of health, conformation and type

I'm not sure where you're coming from but it sounds like a really crappy space.

Thanks, everyone, for your replies - especially to dancinbcs. You've given me a lot to think about :)

I don't think there's anything wrong with your topic or questions but your reply here makes it sound like you're having a go at someone who suggests health, confirmation and type is of higher priority. At least that's the jist I got...

Thank you for letting me know. I didn't intend that at all. I thought Rural Pug was accusing me of putting colour before type or whatever.

[blakkjackal]

Just my personal opinion, but I would never buy from a breeder that focuses on a single colour. In my opinion colour is pretty much irrelevant (apart from the ones associated with health problems) and anyone breeding for a certain colour is breeding for the wrong reasons.

I'm interesting in this statement - probably a bit off topic. I know the idea of being a registered breeders is to continue and better the breed. If you have a recessive colour that is not considered a fault in the dog and you don't have breeders with an interest in keeping that specific colour in the gene pool then don't you risk making that colour practically extinct and therefore wouldn't that be detrimental to the breed?

Just a quick example, you can see my Liver Roan cocker spaniel below. Liver Roan while acceptable in the breed standard is rarely found in the show circuit these days. The Cocker Spaniel Club of Victoria website doesn't even include liver in their list of cocker spaniel colours. If there aren't any breeders with an interest to continue the colour then it will likely end up being a rare throw back colour that is considered a fault.

I actually have sort of a real life example for this one. It's not about dogs but I'd imagine it's relevant anyway.

The Finnhorse originally came in a variety of colours, including chestnut, grey, bay, palomino, buckskin and roan. In about the 30's or 40's someone decided that all colours except for chestnut were indicators of foreign blood (especially grey, as the Orlov trotters from neighbouring country Russia often were grey), therefore all Finnhorses should be chestnut. People started leaving all the undesirable colours out of their breeding and slowly over the decades the situation grew up to the point that there were only a handful of greys left, not to mention the roans and palominos. Most of them were related to each other too.

Up to this day there is only one line that carries the colour roan and it is under the threat of dying out completely as there are currently only 2 living roan mares, one of them being the other one's dam, and zero stallions. With greys the situation is ever so slightly better, as there are at least two lines (as far as I know) that carry it. With bays it was never that bad as a couple of well-known trotters were bay and frequently bred, leaving bay offspring.

So in this case focusing on breeding a single colour led to the near extinction of a few colours. Obvious, really.

I really cannot see not being selective on colour as a threat for diversity as good individuals will reproduce and vice versa, regardless of coat colour. If a colour would become extinct it would probably be for a reason (e.g. solid whites with little pigment) and I cannot see that as a very bad thing at all.

After all we'd never be in this situation unless people started favoring certain colours in the show ring.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

1: Because you were insanely rude to someone who merely bought up the point about putting colour before conformation etc

2: Comments like "I'd only breed if I saw a DNA test that proved they had whatever colour"

3: Not even knowing the breed standard

1. I have explained that as best I can for now.

2. That was the start of a thought process, that's all, and my way of trying to understand things.

3. I will have to go back and check, but I'm pretty sure I didn't say "I don't know the breed standard" because I do in regards to colour. I think I was answering "I don't know" to a question about colour that isn't in the breed standard - like a question about the variation of silver.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[cannibalgoldfish]

I feel like I've made a faux pas by starting this topic, like it's taboo or something. I don't understand how talking about it means you're putting it before something else??

Nah, just roll with it :D You stuck around to read the answers and reply to them and try to explain yourself. That's enough to set you apart from the usual "dash in, wanna breed this, run out" posters. I'm probably just as bad at not explaining things properly myself

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

I feel like I've made a faux pas by starting this topic, like it's taboo or something. I don't understand how talking about it means you're putting it before something else??

Nah, just roll with it :D You stuck around to read the answers and reply to them and try to explain yourself. That's enough to set you apart from the usual "dash in, wanna breed this, run out" posters. I'm probably just as bad at not explaining things properly myself

Thanks, that's very kind of you :)

[RuralPug]

Wow!

Firstly, Maebe let me reassure you that I had no intention of accusing you of anything. I regret that you felt insulted but feel that you may have been a little too sensitive.

I was only trying to point out to anyone considering breeding that it is a terrible trap to concentrate on a single trait because you can lose sight of other important things.

I try to be aware of the wide audience reading DOL so I probably lecture a bit, but unless I preface a remark with a username it is never directed at an individual.

To those who regret losing colours because breeders don't like them, or a favourite stud didn't carry that colour, it is interesting to note that in Pugs, black, although not as common as the fawn, is the dominant colour genetically. Black Pugs were introduced to Europe later than fawns and several times the colour has almost beeen lost due to the popularity of the fawn.

"Dominant colour genetically" means that you simply cannot have a black Pug unless one or both of the parents is black, but two black Pugs each carrying a recessive fawn gene can produce fawn puppies together. A black pug that does not carry a fawn gene cannot produce a fawn pug. The apricot, silver, smutty, rusty, blue etc are all created by one or more modifiers affecting the basic colour.

Maebe, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making your choice of colour or patterning one of your breeding goals as long as it is proportionate to your other goals. I am glad that you have stated that you won't make the prime goal. There is no "taboo" on questions of colour, nothing wrong with your interesting question but the point about health type and confirmation being important too did need to be made, more so to those considering breeding. Please don't let a misunderstanding put you off asking more queestions. None of us ever stop learning and asking questions is a great way to learn.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

Wow!

Firstly, Maebe let me reassure you that I had no intention of accusing you of anything. I regret that you felt insulted but feel that you may have been a little too sensitive.

I was only trying to point out to anyone considering breeding that it is a terrible trap to concentrate on a single trait because you can lose sight of other important things.

I try to be aware of the wide audience reading DOL so I probably lecture a bit, but unless I preface a remark with a username it is never directed at an individual.

To those who regret losing colours because breeders don't like them, or a favourite stud didn't carry that colour, it is interesting to note that in Pugs, black, although not as common as the fawn, is the dominant colour genetically. Black Pugs were introduced to Europe later than fawns and several times the colour has almost beeen lost due to the popularity of the fawn.

"Dominant colour genetically" means that you simply cannot have a black Pug unless one or both of the parents is black, but two black Pugs each carrying a recessive fawn gene can produce fawn puppies together. A black pug that does not carry a fawn gene cannot produce a fawn pug. The apricot, silver, smutty, rusty, blue etc are all created by one or more modifiers affecting the basic colour.

Maebe, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making your choice of colour or patterning one of your breeding goals as long as it is proportionate to your other goals. I am glad that you have stated that you won't make the prime goal. There is no "taboo" on questions of colour, nothing wrong with your interesting question but the point about health type and confirmation being important too did need to be made, more so to those considering breeding. Please don't let a misunderstanding put you off asking more queestions. None of us ever stop learning and asking questions is a great way to learn.

Thank you very much for explaining and I'm sorry if I upset you or offended you. I thought you were talking directly to me.

"Being accused of something I'm not doing" is one of my triggers. That one hasn't been a problem for a while and it took me by surprise. I know now that you weren't accusing me of anything but, due to my distorted perception/limited understanding at the time, that's how it looked to me. I'm very sorry

And I'm sorry, I didn't know that you were a Pug breeder. I didn't mean to sound disrespectful.

[cannibalgoldfish]

Colours may grow on you as well :D I never liked the look of black and tan shiba but in the last ten years they have grown on me enough that I'm seriously considering getting a black n tan girl next...

[RuralPug]

Thank you very much for explaining and I'm sorry if I upset you or offended you. I thought you were talking directly to me.

"Being accused of something I'm not doing" is one of my triggers. That one hasn't been a problem for a while and it took me by surprise. I know now that you weren't accusing me of anything but, due to my distorted perception/limited understanding at the time, that's how it looked to me. I'm very sorry

And I'm sorry, I didn't know that you were a Pug breeder. I didn't mean to sound disrespectful.

Maeby, no harm no foul!! Apology accepted, thank you.

And, although my prefix is still registered with ANKC, I haven't bred a litter in over 25 years now, so it is hardly surprising that you didn't know I was a breeder!! LOL.

(I could have done without the litters I have had to raise since from surrendered rescue bitches too far gone to desex/abort though. )