Pug Colouring

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

I have a question about Pug colouring.

Personally, I don't like the smutty colouring in fawn Pugs' coats that some breeders are now calling 'silver'. As a breeder, is there any way to avoid it?

Fawn Pugs are my favourite, and one day I might consider breeding, but how do you get a nice clear coat?

For example, how do you get this?

And how do you avoid this?

[dancinbcs]

The first pug looks to be genetically clear sable "ayay" and the second one shaded sable "ayat" or wild sable "away" or "awaw" depending on what A series genes lurk in Pug genetics. So if you only ever breed from clear sable then it is impossible to get shaded sable. Clear sable can vary from completely clear to a few patches of dark overlay but the full body overlay is caused by the dog having one "at" tan point gene or one or two "aw" genes.

Does anyone know if black and tan pugs are ever produced? If they are then the "at" gene is present in the breed and the likely cause of the shaded sable colour.

This page is very informative about dog colour genetics in the A series of genes.

Dog coat colour genetics

More important though is to breed the very best Pugs you can regardless of colour.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

Thank you, that is very interesting. I have added it to my favourites :)

More important though is to breed the very best Pugs you can regardless of colour.

Yes, I would use the latest, most up to date health testing.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[raineth]

oh I like the smutty one, is it undesirable or a fault in the standard, or just a preference?

[minimax]

FWIW, silver is a recognised colour in the breed standard, so breeders aren't "now calling it" silver.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

FWIW, silver is a recognised colour in the breed standard, so breeders aren't "now calling it" silver.

I'm sorry, I didn't word that very well :)

I'm asking because this is one of the questions I have about becoming a Pug breeder. I wouldn't want to breed if there was a chance that I would end up with smutty fawn Pugs.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

I'm worried that this thread is going off topic. I didn't intend it to be about slagging off breeders.

I would just like to know if it is possible, genetically speaking, to avoid any kind of grey, smutty colour on a fawn Pug. Personally, if I was a breeder, I would only want to breed clear fawn.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

oh I like the smutty one, is it undesirable or a fault in the standard, or just a preference?

I honestly don't know. I would have thought it was a fault on a fawn Pug, and I have no idea how you're supposed to tell the difference between a smutty fawn and a true silver.

[~Anne~]

I don't think apricot or silver are bullocks but close to it. I believe they are only variations of fawn.

I'm yet to ever see a silver pug. I've seen older pics of 'silver' pugs but never in the flesh. The same with apricot.

I actually rehomed a very, very light fawn bitch. She was almost white she was so light. Who knows if she was pedigree or not but I believe use was also a variation of the fawn.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

I don't think apricot or silver are bollocks but close to it. I believe they are only variations of fawn.

I'm yet to ever see a silver pug. I've seen older pics of 'silver' pugs but never in the flesh. The same with apricot.

I actually rehomed a very, very light fawn bitch. She was almost white she was so light. Who knows if she was pedigree or not but I believe use was also a variation of the fawn.

(Sorry, I edited my earlier posts because I was worried that the thread would go off topic)

I agree. I think they are just variations of fawn. They are sometimes called 'silver fawn' or 'apricot fawn'. I have heard of the very light 'white' Pugs as well.

I have only seen a silver Pug in old photos. Apparently Queen Victoria owned two. And I have only ever seen an apricot in photos too.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[Rebanne]

oh I like the smutty one, is it undesirable or a fault in the standard, or just a preference?

I honestly don't know. I would have thought it was a fault on a fawn Pug, and I have no idea how you're supposed to tell the difference between a smutty fawn and a true silver.

I suggest you join your breed club, oversea's clubs, pages on FB etc and start studying all you can find. Starting with the standard.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

oh I like the smutty one, is it undesirable or a fault in the standard, or just a preference?

I honestly don't know. I would have thought it was a fault on a fawn Pug, and I have no idea how you're supposed to tell the difference between a smutty fawn and a true silver.

I suggest you join your breed club, overseas clubs, pages on FB etc and start studying all you can find. Starting with the standard.

Thank you, that's a very good idea :)

I recently considered becoming a breeder, and I spoke with the relevant people about it, but I decided that it's something I might do in the future when I own a larger property.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[WreckitWhippet]

The dog pictured with the smutty coat is exactly that a smutty fawn. You avoid it by breeding clear coat to clear coat and those with dark pigment on the mask, ears, nails and a trace

[dancinbcs]

Breed standards have all manner of colour descriptions for dogs because they were written before anyone understood anything about genetics, let alone the complicated colour genetics of dogs. To add to the confusion the same colour name can describe different colours in different breeds and any specific genetic colour has many names in the different breed standards. Depending on the breed, fawn can mean ee yellow, sable or dilute brown. Red can mean ee yellow, brown or sable, again depending on what breed you are talking about. Gold, apricot, etc can be ee yellow or sable and often both within the same breed.

It is better for breeders to learn the genetics and work out what genetic colour dogs are, regardless of what the breed standard calls them. All dogs are basically the genetic colours of black, brown, dilute black or dilute brown and these are the nose, lip and eyerim pigment colours. If the coat does not match those pigment colours it can be ee which ranges from the white of a Samoyed through all the yellows and golds to deep chestnut and the red of an Irish Setter. Anything else has a coat pattern or patterns and these can be tan point, masked, sable, shaded sable, wolf sable, brindle and or merle and it's variation of harlequin. Modifyers can affect most patterns and colours so not everything can be explained by genetic testing. White markings make other various patterns and that pretty much covers all dog possible colours and patterns no matter what they are called in the breed standards.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

The dog pictured with the smutty coat is exactly that a smutty fawn. You avoid it by breeding clear coat to clear coat and those with dark pigment on the mask, ears, nails and a trace

Okay, thanks :)

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

Breed standards have all manner of colour descriptions for dogs because they were written before anyone understood anything about genetics, let alone the complicated colour genetics of dogs. To add to the confusion the same colour name can describe different colours in different breeds and any specific genetic colour has many names in the different breed standards. Depending on the breed, fawn can mean ee yellow, sable or dilute brown. Red can mean ee yellow, brown or sable, again depending on what breed you are talking about. Gold, apricot, etc can be ee yellow or sable and often both within the same breed.

It is better for breeders to learn the genetics and work out what genetic colour dogs are, regardless of what the breed standard calls them. All dogs are basically the genetic colours of black, brown, dilute black or dilute brown and these are the nose, lip and eyerim pigment colours. If the coat does not match those pigment colours it can be ee which ranges from the white of a Samoyed through all the yellows and golds to deep chestnut and the red of an Irish Setter. Anything else has a coat pattern or patterns and these can be tan point, masked, sable, shaded sable, wolf sable, brindle and or merle and it's variation of harlequin. Modifyers can affect most patterns and colours so not everything can be explained by genetic testing. White markings make other various patterns and that pretty much covers all dog possible colours and patterns no matter what they are called in the breed standards.

Yes, I agree... I'm going to have to familiarise myself with coat colour genetics.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

The first pug looks to be genetically clear sable "ayay" and the second one shaded sable "ayat" or wild sable "away" or "awaw" depending on what A series genes lurk in Pug genetics. So if you only ever breed from clear sable then it is impossible to get shaded sable. Clear sable can vary from completely clear to a few patches of dark overlay but the full body overlay is caused by the dog having one "at" tan point gene or one or two "aw" genes.

Does anyone know if black and tan pugs are ever produced? If they are then the "at" gene is present in the breed and the likely cause of the shaded sable colour.

This page is very informative about dog colour genetics in the A series of genes.

Dog coat colour genetics

More important though is to breed the very best Pugs you can regardless of colour.

Oh, sorry. For some reason I overlooked this. Now I understand what you mean, thank you :)

Edited November 11, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

Do breeders show each other DNA tests for coat colour before breeding?

(I hope you don't mind me asking these questions. I would be happy to research online)

eta

I'm guessing they do because I just found this...

http://www.vetgen.com/canine-coat-color.html

Edited November 11, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[minimax]

That would be more relevant where you have breeds that have hidden colours, or several colours. Pugs have black and fawn, you don't need a DNA test for that. A pedigree shows you the colour going back generations (well, a few).

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

I just found this...

http://www.tantraspugs.com/pug-colour-genetics.asp