Question About The Age At Which A Puppy Should Leave The Litter

[Henrietta]

We bought home Grace, my now 13 year old girl, home at 13 weeks of age - it may have even been closer to 14 weeks. She was raised inside with mum and one remaining litter mate who the owners were keeping. She was a very confident and stable puppy and grew into a confident and stable adult. I didn't know a great deal about dog behaviour or socialisation back then to be honest, but I don't even remember there being a fear period or a marked change in Grace.

I've been reading Steven Lindsay's Handbook of Applied Dog Behaviour and Training and it mentions the timing of adopting out puppies from a litter. It recommends no earlier than 7 weeks and suggests against leaving it longer than 12 weeks as there is a chance of the emergence of increasing social avoidance.

Now, I know my experience with Grace is anecdotal and I firmly believe that we won out on the genetic lottery with her. Having had that experience though, I had always thought that I would consider bringing home a puppy a later than 8 weeks and I am under the impression that some breeders, especially of smaller breeds, do sometimes leave puppies as a litter a bit longer than the standard 8 weeks.

The issues that can come about by taking a puppy away too early seem to be fairly common knowledge, but has anyone had any experience with leaving a puppy on too long? I'd be very interested to hear of breeder's experiences as well.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Henrietta

[kelpiecuddles]

I think it would only be a problem leaving a puppy longer if it wasn't being properly socialised by the breeder.

[Trisven13]

Personally I wouldn't leave a puppy with a breeder past 10 weeks unless that breeder was prepared to do all the things I do when it comes to socialisation.

I'm very, very passionate about socialisation and, essentially, put my life on hold when I have a litter making sure that they are exposed to as much as possible in a safe way. I take enormous pleasure in sending out puppies who are healthy, happy and uber-confident. I don't expect others to put the work in that I do BUT if they didn't I would want the puppy with me from 8 weeks, if possible, so that I could do all that myself.

[minimax]

I picked up one of my pugs when he was around 3.5 months old, almost 4 months. It was my choice, and for my convenience that he stay with the breeder as I had a 6 week overseas holiday planned and my pups mum didn't take my holiday plans into account when she came into season, so my pup Boston was around 9 weeks old when I was due to leave :laugh:

He stayed with two littermates that the breeder was keeping, she also has his mum, dad, grandfather, uncles etc and he's as well adjusted, if not more, than my girl that I got at 8 weeks. That's partly personality though, as Boston is laid back and easy going, but his breeder put amazing work into him and he was taken to shows with the other pups and socialised and lead trained etc

But then, if you got a breeder that kept them for that long and didn't do anything with them, I can imagine it would have a negative effect on development.

[huski]

Puppies go through their first fear period between 12-16 weeks. IMO the ideal age to go to a new home is around 7-8 weeks. If I had a litter I would take any unsold puppy in its fear period off the market until later in its development.

That's not to say all puppies sold between 12-16 weeks grow up badly, but I would avoid it and wouldn't take a puppy of that age personally.

Edited November 10, 2013 by huski

[julesluvscavs]

We got Miah when she was 10 weeks, but she was being socialized by the breeder. Shes now almost a year old and im still waiting for that fear period to happen that i had read so much about on here and had been dreading!

Touch wood, but shes still very friendly and outgoing and i'm yet see anything phase her at home or out and about.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Jules❤3Cavs

[Remarkabull]

Puppies go through their first fear period between 12-16 weeks. IMO the ideal age to go to a new home is around 7-8 weeks. If I had a litter I would take any unsold puppy in its fear period off the market until later in its development.

That's not to say all puppies sold between 12-16 weeks grow up badly, but I would avoid it and wouldn't take a puppy of that age personally.

Its funny you say that as the 2 dogs I've owned that have had temperament issues (DA for both and one was extremely fearful of other dogs from day one of him coming home) and both were around 12 + weeks when I got them. All my other dogs have ranged from 5weeks (I know, but it was before I knew any better) to 8 weeks when they came home and they all have steady temps and no behaviour problems.

Not to say that this was the cause of their problems (I'm certain that genetics was to blame for my last Dobes issues but this could have been a contributing factor to the severity maybe).

I've bred one litter of pups and they were free to go from 8 weeks of age but 2 stayed with me for an extra few weeks as they were flying interstate. I made sure they were treated the same as the pup I kept and I think it really helped.

[Lollipup]

I found this video interesting, it just came up on my FB tonight.

However most breeders don't go to this much effort so I am keen to have my puppy by 8 weeks of age so that I can make sure all the socialisation work is done the way I want it. If I were buying from a breeder that did as much as the people in that video, I might be happier to wait longer. The fear period time is mentioned in there as 8 - 10 weeks. I have heard different sources say both 8-10 or 12 weeks and others say it varies depending on the pup.

[sandgrubber]

As a minor breeder who raises pups as part of the family, in the house, I have never seen the 'fear period' . . . or any fear period. Just did a google search and found one source that claims there are four fear periods (http://www.positivedogs.com/articles/early_doesnt_mean.html ):

• Between seven to nine weeks of age
• Anywhere from four to six months
• Again at around 12 months
• At approximately 14 to 18 months and with some dogs can even be as late as 2 years

I have a 14 wk pup at the moment. She IS afraid of the neighbor's goose, and of the DA pit bull down the street. But she waggles up to every human she meets, cries to visit the greyhound and wolfhound who live across the street, and comes running to investigate power tools or other loud noises. Based on a dozen or so other pups I've raised in my house, I expect this behavior to continue...though by the time she outweighs it, she will ignore the goose. I've seen pups in this age group hit an electric fence and develop no lasting fear response, other than avoiding lines that look like the electric fence.

With respect to really bad experiences, such as being mauled by a bigger dog or tortured by a child...I wouldn't let that happen to a dog at any age.

[Jed]

I have homed pups at !2 weeks +. There have never been any problems. In fact, new owners were thrilled that the pups were almost housetrained, did not cry all night, and learned very quickly.

I do think it depends on how they are treated by the breeder prior to being sold. I have also bought pups at 3 - 4 months - no problems.

I think pups with good nerve make the transition more easily too.

[OSoSwift]

One of my pups went at 12 weeks. She has basic training, was clicker savy, had been around kids, cats, sheep, alpaca and vacuum cleaners TV's etc etc. She had been for car rides, seen new people and had lived as one fo my own. She was picked up travelled 4 hours like a trouper and has fitted in very well at her new home.

All of the puppies were put in a puppy pen in the loungeroom every night and took turns learning how to relax on the lounge and fall asleep watching tv and drape over people. So had the off button well established. Toilet training had begun as well as wearing a colalr, walking on a lead and doing sit, drops, heeling all with clicker training.

I hope this helped them to be well adjusted babies, that was my aim :)

[Christina]

Mine leave between 10 & 13 weeks.

Never had a problem or any reported back & I do keep contact for the first few weeks with all & lifetime with some.

Way back even as a child we had pups at 6 weeks & they were fine too.

It depends on how they are treated & raised much more than the age in my experience. Genetics also play their part. As long as they are loved & handled & taken out of their own environment so they know there is a world out there that is enough. Not exactly rocket science merely common sense.

Doubt there is any one rule fits all.

Some people believe that the dog won't bond with them if they don't get it at 6 or 8 weeks but that is not true either. I have dogs come to me as teenagers & adults & we have bonded amazingly.

[sandgrubber]

I found this video interesting, it just came up on my FB tonight.

However most breeders don't go to this much effort so I am keen to have my puppy by 8 weeks of age so that I can make sure all the socialisation work is done the way I want it. If I were buying from a breeder that did as much as the people in that video, I might be happier to wait longer. The fear period time is mentioned in there as 8 - 10 weeks. I have heard different sources say both 8-10 or 12 weeks and others say it varies depending on the pup.

No need to go that far to have a well adapted pup/dog, though I think a lot of handling early on does make pups more social (orphaned pups who end out bottle and tube fed often become great dogs). I'm suspicious of anyone who brags about using bio-sensor. Video clips are frustrating cause they talk only about 'studies have shown' rather than saying what study. See: http://www.border-wars.com/2012/02/bio-sensor-is-bad-science-the-failure-of-super-dog.html

[Steve]

Ive never seen the fear period either ,my puppies are known for being bomb proof when they go home but they are involved in and introduced to things which I know they will experience when they get home and I do think its a lot to do with breed - My Maremma for example in my opinion are advantaged by going home sooner rather than later and so are the people who are taking them. My beagles do well going home at 8 weeks and I havent noticed any difference in a 8 week old or a 12 week old.

[BoxerB]

Due to circumstances that were unavoidable, my pup stayed with the breeder also to around 13/14 weeks.

Best decision ever!!! I got a very well adjusted pup who knows how to get on with other animals and people.

Just my 2c. But i think that extra few weeks with his litter mates and mum, really taught him what is and isn't acceptable behavior. Being also with a professional breeder who cares and took the time to start his socialisating/training was invaluable. As it was closer to home i picked him up from a show that the breeder was attending, which was now his second one. He was confident walking around on a lead, not fussed by all the other dogs, and had also had a few car trips by then, so the drive home was nice and relaxed :) (2+ hrs)

I wouldn't do anything differently next time around if given the choice.

[espinay2]

I have seen fear periods but the most obvious I have seen have been later such as around 7months. Dogs can go through multiple fear periods up until around 2 years of age and yes, it will be more obvious in some dogs than in others.

As for age of pups going home, no earlier than 8 weeks (by law in many states and in regulations for registered breeders) but later will depend on the breeder and the individual situation. My last litter in addition to the pup I was keeping, I had a pup who was not going to his new home until 3 months of age. He recieved similar to my own pup - separate crate training, potty training, basic training such as walking on a lead, sit and drop etc, attendance at puppy classes and other socialization, desensitisation to sights and sounds etc. Pup is now in Melbourne training as a therapy dog and doing fantastically. He has already been on two plane trips too and is a total pro about it - very relaxed. If the pup were in a situation where it was mostly kennelled and only recieved basic attention of course the situation may be different. How the pup is managed before it leaves not the age it leaves is IMO more important.

Edited November 11, 2013 by espinay2

[brintey]

I have just had my first litter of Leonbergers, so I know this is anecdotal and only true for me.

My girl had a litter of seven puppies. Like others I had time off work to devote myself full time to raising the litter (exhausting but rewarding!). One of the things I observed was that at about five and a half, six weeks it was like a little switch went off and suddenly everyone was very interested in playing with everyone else, nipping, wrestling, sharing chicken wings. They still all loved their one on one time but were happiest with their brothers and sisters.

At about seven and half, eight weeks it was like another little switch went off and suddenly everyone was very interested in me, vying for my attention and wanting to get up close and personal. Siblings no longer had the same appeal and human visitors would be enthusiastically mobbed! So even though it was heartbreaking to say goodbye to the puppies at eight weeks, it was the right time for them, they craved individual one-on-one attention and direction from me and I just couldn’t give them what they needed.

That said I if I had a small litter I could have kept two puppies on for longer, just would have been harder work for me to make sure they got the individual attention and training.

[CrazyCresties]

I got my 'working type' cocker at 15 weeks as I wasn't 'dog educated' then and didn't know any different. He had been well socialised by the breeder and her sons and was the most gorgeous tempered dog, great with people and other dogs - and a big plus he was almost 100% toilet trained by then as well

[koalathebear]

I was initially scared by the horror stories, too and thought 8 weeks was ideal and anything older was bad ...

Hoover came from Working Kelpie Council breeder at 3+ months - had never been off the property or in a car before then, never met a vacuum cleaner/washing machine/electric slippers etc - never been in the house actually but is our most bomb proof of our dogs and completely unfazed by anything he encounters. Socialisation is very important and I work very hard at socialising all of our foster dogs but I don't think it necessarily means Bad Dog if it doesn't happen.

Lots of dogs that come through rescue were probably very unsocialised prior to coming into care and seem to be able to come good - we're just very careful about ensuring that we do a lot of careful exposure and socialisation with the dogs without overwhelming them. You can never socialise to all things though ... one of the dogs we rehomed went to a home with alpacas and it wasn't possible for us to have predicted that :laugh: Fortunately the owners put in the hard work of training him around alpacas.

Similarly, I have seen some extremely well-bred dogs that have been very carefully socialised by experienced dog owners yet still end up being fear aggressive. There's also a genetic component in there, too and also the wild care that these are animals not machines.

Edited November 11, 2013 by koalathebear

[lovemesideways]

I think a lot of people mess up when it comes to socialisation because the message has been pushed so hard "socialise your puppies! Take them everywhere! Show them everything" has some very important parts missing.

You can ruin a puppy by over socialising it, and its not hard to do, yet this message gets left out. The idea seems to be that introducing your puppies to as much things in life as much as possible is the best method, but its so much safer if you have an aspect of control.

When I told people (even on here) that my puppy was not allowed to be approached by strangers, that I didn't introduce him to every dog he met, that I didn't allow everyone in the world to touch him, the general reaction was BUT YOU AREN"T SOCIALISING HIM! He will turn into a vicious monster! The damage has been done, you can't fix it now!

Yet, I have one of the most solid bomb proof dogs I know, he stood solid when a little girl threw herself on him, he turned away when a dog attacked him, yet he has the nerves to stand and face a decoy.

I personally wouldn't take home a puppy who was older than 7-8 weeks. There is SO much I want to do with my puppy from the second they're brought home, that no breeder with a litter of puppies to look after is going to be able to replicate! Not unless they have more hours in a day than I do :laugh: (in which case, what is your secret!?)