RiverStar-Aura Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 It is a shame that dogs are 'encouraged'/forced to engage with each other . I totally agree with you, persephone Why do owners think their dogs need to play? Is the interaction between strange dogs & even adult pack members really play in the context that we as humans interpret play? Well it does depend on the park I guess. My local park has a group of regulars who have all become very close friends due to our mutual love of dogs. Our dogs have actually bonded and most likely become what I'd call a pack as there is a definite hierarchy. I object to some of the regular dogs because they'll be allowed to dominate new dogs to 'put them in their place' within the pack but I make sure I don't allow my dogs to do this. I'm also very wary when a new dog approaches the group because we are a well established pack of about 4 plus years. It's not fair on newcomers to be swamped by a pack when I KNOW it's a very high potential danger. I'll be quick to call my dogs away before they arrive and leash Zeus -- he has a dominant personality (more so just overly confident than dominant I think) but he can get very excited and aroused so I prefer not to let him loose with the unknown. Kirah likes to charge in the flop on her back which I don't mind but won't risk her flopping over to a dog who may or may not attack her. It's so much easier to control my dogs, assess the situation and act accordingly. So many owners at the park aren't like this and believe that all dogs are meant to be BFFs with each other. I don't like all humans so I can't expect my dog to like all other dogs either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 The other thing that annoys me is when people bring their dogs and then sit down and have their own social experience and don't watch their dogs.. I find that sort of behaviour quite weird. We watch our dogs like hawks when we're at the dog park - but I've seen people dump their dog and then sit in a corner on the phone/texting/chatting with friends and not even looking at their dogs. One time, a guy dumped his pit bull in the park and went outside to chat to a mate. The dog was fine, but it was such a risky and strange thing to do. I've seen people leave their small children unattended to while they wandered off to do various things. Our dogs are friendly around children but the parents didn't know that! We used to get the same people coming through at the same time, these days not so much but there are a lot of familiar faces and dogs and as for all things dog-related, it's a matter of being vigiliant. Our dogs are happy to play with one another - often the park is deserted and they will simply play amongst themselves. They also really enjoy playing with other dogs though. Sometimes owners get really happy because they say after romping with our three, their dog will be nice and tired for the day :laugh: I see it all the time at the Queanbeyan park. I would think close to 50% (just based on what I see when I am there) do just that - they come in, let the dog off and go and sit down for a chat with others there. I am always with Zig when at the park, throwing the ball and practising our recall - it is a fun way for him to practice it (and not as formal as obedience).. I tend to hang with the same crew when we go - I know the dogs, I know how they all play with each other.. Mostly, they are all just happy for balls to be thrown and all run together to the ball.. The only time there has ever been an issue is when another dog comes into the mix - seems to upset the balance they have together.. Whoever gets the ball brings it back and it varies, all the dogs get a turn at bringing it back - or they seem to. Zig is happy to just play with me - with me throwing his ball and then him getting in and out of the clam shell pool.. He isn't as focused on other dogs as he used to be. I have never forced Zig to play with any dog. We go to the park, if there are dogs there and they want to play - he will play but mostly he is happy to just chase his ball and bring it back to me.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Dogs definitely enjoy play!! :D ..and yes, it is very often just that - racing around playing chasey , "keepies off' , & good humoured wrestling .!!!! I love watching dogs meet and then suddenly deciding they are friends - racing off to go mad . However .. in some urban smaller 'dog parks' the dogs don't have many ways they can avoid unwelcome attention if their owners do not notice ..and that's what's unfortunate ..a bit like a small kid going to someone's birthday party because parents think it will be socially beneficial ..and their little one gets picked on and desperately wants to go home ... while parents chat and network ;) having our own pack , it's interesting who plays with whom .. who will do free ear/body piercing for whom .. and who is just beyond it all :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trifecta Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Dogs definitely enjoy play!! :D ..and yes, it is very often just that - racing around playing chasey , "keepies off' , & good humoured wrestling .!!!! having our own pack , it's interesting who plays with whom .. who will do free ear/body piercing for whom .. and who is just beyond it all :) Yes, but is it for fun, or are there other motivations behind the behaviour we call play? Appeasement, perhaps, or maintaining relationships? Sorry, perse, I have quoted you twice, not picking on your posts, but finding it difficult to put my train of thought into words :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Play is for all sorts of reasons anyhow , isn't it? learning, relationship building, stress relief, exercise, enjoying an endorphin kick ..... :) I used to love watching Hamlet .. who didn't play all that often ..wearing a circular track around a certain rosebush as he & any pups would race each other round & round & round , til they collapsed in a grinning, drooling heap :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison03 Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 . I'm not saying don't go to dog parks, I'm saying it's to be done at your own risk. The problem for small dog owners its that its not just the owners risk. The risk to the dog IF it meets the wrong dog is significant. Its a risk I'm simply not prepared to take. I know that most times it would probably be OK but my dogs don't particularly enjoy the company of strange dogs and they're older now. Best to seek exercise elsewhere or wait for quieter times. Dog parks are an artificial situation that's not natural for a territorial pack animal and the combination of sizes can see the equivalent of a toddler being let loose in the middle of a rugby game. Add clueless owners of some dogs and it's an accident waiting to happen IMO. That's very true HW, my dogs safety is at the forefront of my mind every time I go out, I am responsible for her so if I make a mistake, she pays the price. So the risk of taking her to a dog park is too high. It's just like letting a toddler join in a Rugby game. : )) I prefer to walk her everyday with friends and their dogs, then create our own dog park in my garden. There are too many variants in a public dog park for my liking. Nine times out of ten it would probably be good, the tenth time disaster, not worth the risk to my dog. Our little group have walked through a small dog beach area a few times with no problems, a beach doesn't feel as artificial and closed in as a dog park but it's still way up there in the risk taking stakes. That's as far as I go with communal socialization and I have my husband with me for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison03 Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I'd recommend going to friends with large gardens, it's a change of scene and there's plenty of room to play - my own dogs are all over 12 yrs of age, my 2 foster are a bit younger but I don't want any of them terrified or injured - that's what will happen if I go to a dog park - it might only be one dog, could be more that are the cause of this but it only takes one dog to kill yours, break it's back or whatever, when you have small dogs. I recommend you don't go back - Toy Poodles are like fluffy toys to some dogs - it can set off their prey drive - as per your experience. Your dog is lucky to have survived. Spot on Dogmad. : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 Where are the " it was the other dogs fault, not yours. You have the right to expect a dog to behave in a public place" relies? Instead, the OP is told not to take her dog to these places. Interesting given the other thread. Interesting isn't it. Given that whether at an off lead park or an on lead pet event dogs are legally required to be under effective control and are not allowed to bite other dogs, I don't see a significant difference in the circumstances of this incident and the one LMSW posted about in the other thread, yet the tone of responses in this thread are completely different. I do note that the people who responded in both threads have given consistent advice to both of us :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 Simply Grand, I'm sticking with my original assumption & I'm highly amused & puzzled your lesson hasn't got through. But nice try :) It really wasnt meant to be a parody, it was an experiment and I really really appreciate the sensible and measures responses. Saxon is fine, we moved to the small dog side of the park where there were no other dogs (it's the Scar at Qbn park) so he could have some more pleasant time at the park before we left and he was happy pottering around sniffing. We've been back since and he's quite happy there. It was a big lesson to ME though to up my vigilance and take even less risks with unknown dogs. I am aware that my knowledge of dog behaviour is above the average person's and I therefore feel that I have a higher level of responsibility to do what I can to prevent incidents between my dogs and others. Although I know it was the owner of the other dog's fault that it happened, and listening to her talk afterwards, it was pretty obvious that she was clueless about dog training and that she was one of those owners HW mentioned who took her dog to the park coz it was too hard for her to control it anywhere else, I know more than she does, and I know there are people like her around so I should not have let Saxon be in that situation, and will not again. I wonder what it is that has made the responses different in this situation than the other one? Is it that this was at a dog park? Do people really think there will be less of that type of owner around at a pets day out than at a dog park? Surely not. Is it that we were off lead? The first bite happened when the dogs were standing still sniffing each other so regardless of what happened next the big dog responded inappropriately to normal dog behaviour from Saxon regardless of other factors, and it seemed to be the point in the other thread that that is never ok and should ranted about, never "accepted". Is it something to do with the size of the dogs involved? Well, it could be because my dog could have been killed so I have no option to go around lamenting the fact that some other people don't do a great job managing their dogs, I HAVE TO take responsibility for my own dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 One more thing, I really do appreciate the time and effort people put into posting their responses, they are definitely valuable and I hope I haven't upset anyone by posting this thread. It want really to make a point, I just genuinely wondered whether things would go differently if I posted my story in a similar manner to how LMSW posted hers. It is a genuine incident and I actually posted it in the other thread in response to the questions about whether some of us who posted about that would feel differently if the sizes of the dogs were reversed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 (edited) It was pretty obvious what this thread was. I couldn't say why the difference in reactions as my stance is still the same, onlead or offlead, park or event or street or footpath, it isn't acceptable and the attacking dog/owner is at fault. Although I would be less surprised at an attack while dogs are in an off lead park due to my own experiences and I do think they are very different environments. Edited November 9, 2013 by Aussie3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 It was pretty obvious what this thread was. I couldn't say why the difference in reactions as my stance is still the same, onlead or offlead, park or event or street or footpath, it isn't acceptable and the attacking dog/owner is at fault. Yes and you could say "shouldn't be in the dog park" but the problem is, they always will be just like anti social dogs will always be taken to shows like LMSW posted about. Different things trigger different behaviours in dogs. The safest thing a small dog can do is mix with other dogs the same size. Even if the bigger dogs are OK with small dogs, there can still be an accident if they are all playing - the small dog can be seriously injured by accident - similarly so can the sighthounds with thin skin In any situation, yelping dogs can turn on prey drive in an instant and it can be too late. I don't know why a Lab killed a Toy Poodle in the local dog park a few years ago but I knew the Toy Poodle, he was the sweetest little chap on the planet and had mixed with my dogs without an issue. I wasn't there at the time so have no idea what caused that. Needless to say there have been deaths and maulings aplenty at the two most local dogs parks since they opened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 It really wasnt meant to be a parody, it was an experiment and I really really appreciate the sensible and measures responses. What do you mean it was an experiment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 It really wasnt meant to be a parody, it was an experiment and I really really appreciate the sensible and measures responses. What do you mean it was an experiment? We've had lots of threads about dogs being attacked on DOL and usually the responses are along the lines of what's been said in this thread, that yes it sucks that there are dogs that don't behave appropriately towards other dogs and stupid owners who make excuses for them BUT it's a fact of life so we all have to deal with it and take steps to protect our own dogs. In LMSW's thread there were plenty of response along those lines but there also seemed to be quite a bit of anger at the small dog and its owners, and LMSW argued against people saying stuff like this happens, you shouldn't put your dog in that situation. I found it interesting (and somewhat frustrating) and I wanted to see whether the same would happen in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosetta Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I don't understand - did this incident occur or not Regardless my opinion about dog parks will not change. If you have a small dog avoid, avoid. Only consider if there is a separate section for small dogs and then be vigilant as small dogs can hurt other small dogs also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 It was pretty obvious what this thread was. I couldn't say why the difference in reactions as my stance is still the same, onlead or offlead, park or event or street or footpath, it isn't acceptable and the attacking dog/owner is at fault. Although I would be less surprised at an attack while dogs are in an off lead park due to my own experiences and I do think they are very different environments. It was meant to be obvious, I intentionally used the same wording :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 I don't understand - did this incident occur or not Regardless my opinion about dog parks will not change. If you have a small dog avoid, avoid. Only consider if there is a separate section for small dogs and then be vigilant as small dogs can hurt other small dogs also. Yes the incident did occur, just how I told it. The bit at the end about being so sick of it was exaggerated and the emphasis on the size of the other dog was to match what was said in the other thread. In reality I'm frustrated by owners of any size dog who don't train, care for and manage it properly. I also found the strong focus on the size of the other dog in the other thread annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison03 Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 To be honest that other thread got a little bit too involved for me, a lot of people at cross purposes. It was about an incident that happens everyday somewhere, an unstable dog bites a stable dog, it doesn't matter what size the dogs were, the biter was in the wrong. The big dog small dog thing just got in the way. The small dog bit the large dog, which brought up similar experiences in the minds of big dog owners. So they told their stories which got the small dog owners telling theirs. The facts are there will always be irresponsible dog owners with confused dogs that lack guidance and leadership. The rest of us who try the best we can to be responsible have to protect our dogs from them. That's about all there is to it and all the foot stamping in the world won't change that. I know I've done a fair bit of foot stamping myself which acheived nothing. Simply Grand by reposting her experience with Saxon, ( no pun intended) simplified a subject that had become unnecessarily complex. : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzy82 Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 It was pretty obvious what this thread was. I couldn't say why the difference in reactions as my stance is still the same, onlead or offlead, park or event or street or footpath, it isn't acceptable and the attacking dog/owner is at fault. Although I would be less surprised at an attack while dogs are in an off lead park due to my own experiences and I do think they are very different environments. Even when the attacking dog was minding its own business and was approached without warning by another dog? IMO, it's not always the attacking dog who is at fault. If I've got my reactive dog on leash and under control, and someone lets their "friendly" dog run up to say hello, it's the friendly dog who is fault. And this was the case in the other thread. Big, friendly, well trained dog was allowed to approach a small, fearful dog. And yet it's the small dog's fault? Doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverStar-Aura Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Considering how close LMSW's dog was to the small terrier, unless it was blind, deaf and had a blocked nose, there was no way for it to not know Roscoe was around. There was barely a metre between the dogs, so I'm sure it was aware of him when he sniffed. Yes fault does lie with both owners in LMSW's case, but the little dog's reaction was extreme. Sorry to railroad your thread SG, but I felt I needed to address F82's comment. I am so glad your little Saxon is okay!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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