Breeds To Be Wary Of

[OSoSwift]

If all dogs are essentially the same why don't my Whippets guard??? My Dobes did as did my Rotti. The Whippets must be broken. They also do not round up sheep but the BC does and is extremely good at it???? If they are all essentially the same I should be able to get my Whippets to be good sheepdogs????

Edited November 9, 2013 by OSoSwift

[Salukifan]

Oh please. Are you suggesting that all breeds have the same predisposition to prey drive, territorial aggression, protectiveness, the same levels of reactivity and the same bite inhibition and thresholds?

OK... Oh please right back at you.

A dog is what we want it to be regardless of what it's been originally bred for.

Consider nature vs nurture.

Sorry, but that statement demonstrates that you clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

It's nature AND nurture that make a dog. But nurture cannot change what nature has hardwired, nor can it add what isn't there. That's why you don't see Golden Retrievers doing protection work or working sheep. Or Whippets livestock guarding.

No doubt you think its always the fault of an owner if the dog has dog aggressive tendencies? Wonderful.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[hankdog]

It's also an issue when the dogs are publicly vilified for being a particular breed and negative actions are advocated in dealing with the breed.

Many large breed dogs require particular training and management but the "bull breeds" cop more than their share of negative stereotyping that must be acknowledged for what it is. Stereotyping on breed appearance because some people who own the breed do so irresponsibly.

Edited November 9, 2013 by hankdog

[huski]

Nurture can only build on what nature gives us. You cannot change or add something to a dog that isn't already there genetically.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Oh please. Are you suggesting that all breeds have the same predisposition to prey drive, territorial aggression, protectiveness, the same levels of reactivity and the same bite inhibition and thresholds?

OK... Oh please right back at you.

A dog is what we want it to be regardless of what it's been originally bred for.

Consider nature vs nurture and re-visit the original question posed in this thread.

So if I want my coolie to stop his interest in herding he'll do it? Can I get my shih tzu to herd instead of my coolie?

[Salukifan]

It's also an issue when the dogs are publicly vilified for being a particular breed and negative actions are advocated in dealing with the breed.

Many large breed digs require particular training and management but the "bull breeds" cop more than their share of negative stereotyping that must be acknowledged for what it is. Stereotyping on breed appearance because some people who own the breed do so irresponsibly.

There has been no vilification here. There has been a suggestion of caution only and its warranted.

The "bull breed dogs" cop more than their share of negative stereotyping because they tend to be involved in more than their fare share of dog aggression incidents.

It's hardly negative to acknowledge what a dog has been bred to be and to react appropriately.

Are you going to act the same strolling in the front gate of a house with an Anatolian or Central Asian Shepherd as you do with a Greyhound? I know I'm sure as hell not going to.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[blakkjackal]

Hey, it's all in the training now isn't it... ;)

I prefer to use the term "bull type terriers", I think it represents the breeds I mean a lot better than just bull type dogs.

[Kajtek]

No doubt you think its always the fault of an owner if the dog has dog aggressive tendencies? Wonderful.

Yes, in the context of this thread "Breeds to be wary of"

BTW, I am always ready to learn and hear opinions of those who are more experienced to reduce my 'no idea' quotient :D

[mixeduppup]

So this begs the question. Are there some behaviours that can be quelled by raising the dog a certain way or will the congenital behaviours always be there? Say a trotting horse was bred to race but raised as a trail horse, would that horse still naturally want to trot or is that a an inherent but equally learned behaviour? The horse was born with the genes and ability to trot but will it do it naturally if raised not to? I guess I'm asking is inheriting dog aggression enough to warrant even the best trained/handled dog being watched like a hawk? If pushed to their threshold will they naturally lean to dog aggression? Interested on views.

[Are You Serious Jo]

It doesn't matter what context, that is the whole point of breeding particular traits into dogs. You want that behaviour to be there when you need it and it will be there all the time because it has been selected for over many years. There are some very experienced people here who have tried to educate you, don't assume just because they haven't stated their qualifications they are just pet owners like you. You'd do well to listen to them.

[melzawelza]

Behaviours within a breed fall within a bell curve. There are fewer dogs at each extreme of the behaviour and more of them falling somewhere in the middle.

This isn't often a popular opinion in the show circles but as soon as you stop selecting for working ability you start to lose it. This is why so many showline working dogs are not up to the task they were originally bred for - because it isn't being selected for. This happens even more quickly when the original task you were breeding for is counter-productive in an evolutionary sense and very hard to select for (extreme gameness, fighting your own species to the death).

Then when you remember that almost all 'bull breeds' in this country are mixed breed dogs with god knows what in them, you are watering down those traits even more.

Does dog aggression exist at a higher level overall in pedigreed APBT, AST & SBT than other breeds? Of course. Can we generalise that 'bull breeds' (a badly defined, ever expanding group of dogs with arbitrary physical characteristics) are aggressive towards other dogs on the whole? Of course not, because of the reasons above. Most fall within the middle of the bell curve.

I think this article is a good article when it comes to dog/dog tolerance, particularly in 'Pit Bull' dogs.

Dog/dog Tolerance

Edited November 9, 2013 by melzawelza

[mixeduppup]

It doesn't matter what context, that is the whole point of breeding particular traits into dogs. You want that behaviour to be there when you need it and it will be there all the time because it has been selected for over many years. There are some very experienced people here who have tried to educate you, don't assume just because they haven't stated their qualifications they are just pet owners like you. You'd do well to listen to them.

Was that to me or Kajtek? Think it was to her but just checking. :)

[Salukifan]

So this begs the question. Are there some behaviours that can be quelled by raising the dog a certain way or will the congenital behaviours always be there? Say a trotting horse was bred to race but raised as a trail horse, would that horse still naturally want to trot or is that a an inherent but equally learned behaviour? The horse was born with the genes and ability to trot but will it do it naturally if raised not to? I guess I'm asking is inheriting dog aggression enough to warrant even the best trained/handled dog being watched like a hawk? If pushed to their threshold will they naturally lean to dog aggression? Interested on views.

Bad analogy. Standardbreds are trained to pace and harnessed when racing to ensure they do. Outside of harness racing, every Standardbred I've seen has trotted normally.

You're also talking about a physical trait, not a behavioural one.

Not every bull breed will demonstrate dog aggression. But owners need to know to watch for it, particularly as the dog reaches adolescence and not to put their dogs in situations that may trigger it. Managed well, such dogs may NEVER aggress which is the ideal. But for many dogs the potential is always there.

Drives me nuts to see people ignore their dogs hardwiring. Whippets get surrendered for killing chickens and cats. Why give them the opportunity to do what comes naturally to them????

[Are You Serious Jo]

HW is right, pacing is an extra gait, not instead of a normal trot. Look at the leg harnesses that are used to try to keep them pacing.

[Salukifan]

Then when you remember that almost all 'bull breeds' in this country are mixed breed dogs with god knows what in them, you are watering down those traits even more.

If people want to refer to such dogs as "breeds" that is their prerogative.

I was never discussing crossbred dogs. They are a genetic lottery - and their characteristics are far less predictable.

This isn't often a popular opinion in the show circles but as soon as you stop selecting for working ability you start to lose it.

I think its a complete no brainer. No active selection for the trait means that dogs that don't display it aren't culled from the breeding pool. You're bound to see less of it or at least less intensity of it.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[RiverStar-Aura]

Oh please. Are you suggesting that all breeds have the same predisposition to prey drive, territorial aggression, protectiveness, the same levels of reactivity and the same bite inhibition and thresholds?

OK... Oh please right back at you.

A dog is what we want it to be regardless of what it's been originally bred for.

Consider nature vs nurture and re-visit the original question posed in this thread.

I do agree to a certain extent with the nature v. nurture debate, but having said that, no amount of nurturing will turn my terrier into a gundog or hound -- it's not in a terrier's predisposition. It is becoming quite clear by reading this thread that many people do not understand the terrier instinct in regards to the SBT. There has always been a LOT of focus on them as a bull breed but really, what makes them so much of a potential issue is the mix of bull and terrier.

You do not mess with a terrier and yes, even my 6 kilo Aussie will take on dogs who start things -- it's what terriers do and what makes them so potentially dangerous. They are quick to jump in to finish things and not give a thought as to who or what's involved. I'll tell Kirah's story again. She was accidentally stepped on by a 50 plus kilo Bull Arab I was patting. Instead of backing away, she squeaked in shock then came up snarling and growling much to the poor Bull Arab's surprise. I was just lucky that Kirah's 'you hurt me so I'm telling you where to go' attitude didn't start the other one going because Kirah would've been a goner.

I don't condone Kirah's behaviour purely because it's typical terrier behaviour and was just a lot noise on her part, however, it makes me twice as aware of her potential to take that noise further. It's how terriers are wired and they are not for the light hearted, easily walked over owner. They must have a firm hand and an unquestionable pack leader; there have been countless time Kirah's questioned my authority! It's not easy and that's because a lot of terriers are very cute and make you just want to go 'awwwww' (well I do anyway!), but that's where they get you. How is it possible for something so cute to be so feral?

It's hard for me because I'm not particularly painting terriers in a good light here, but people need to understand what their instincts are. They are also rat cunning and know how to hold a grudge but it is this attitude, which really endears me to them. Terriers are such tough little buggers and their go go go, never back down attitude is amazing.

[mixeduppup]

So this begs the question. Are there some behaviours that can be quelled by raising the dog a certain way or will the congenital behaviours always be there? Say a trotting horse was bred to race but raised as a trail horse, would that horse still naturally want to trot or is that a an inherent but equally learned behaviour? The horse was born with the genes and ability to trot but will it do it naturally if raised not to? I guess I'm asking is inheriting dog aggression enough to warrant even the best trained/handled dog being watched like a hawk? If pushed to their threshold will they naturally lean to dog aggression? Interested on views.

Bad analogy. Standardbreds are trained to pace and harnessed when racing to ensure they do. Outside of harness racing, every Standardbred I've seen has trotted normally.

You're also talking about a physical trait, not a behavioural one.

Not every bull breed will demonstrate dog aggression. But owners need to know to watch for it, particularly as the dog reaches adolescence and not to put their dogs in situations that may trigger it. Managed well, such dogs may NEVER aggress which is the ideal. But for many dogs the potential is always there.

Drives me nuts to see people ignore their dogs hardwiring. Whippets get surrendered for killing chickens and cats. Why give them the opportunity to do what comes naturally to them????

I feel your pain. I have the same thing with people contacting me because their pet working dogs are rounding everything up or exhibiting manic herding behaviour like circling or nipping the kids' ankles. And people don't want to listen when you start talking basic dog behaviour, they just want the dog gone. But that's another tangent...

[Rascalmyshadow]

That's the exact problem too many people owning dogs they like the look of but don't understand the particular traits of the breed. The same dog in a different home where it's needs are met will often behave completely different.

If more people acknowledged the fact that some traits can't be changed and if the dog has no outlet to express these traits they will become a problem.

I have taken in numerous toy poodles because the owners couldn't handle them, why because they wanted a cute fluffy lap dog but didn't take into account they are a breed that needs a lot of attention and mental stimulation also often have a high prey drive. Many of these dogs bite even their owners. All could have been avoided if these people found a breed that was a more suitable match.

[mixeduppup]

HW is right, pacing is an extra gait, not instead of a normal trot. Look at the leg harnesses that are used to try to keep them pacing.

I haven't had much to do with them, so assumed it was an inherited behaviour as well. The only time I've ever been near a standardbred is to ride one a few times and they are super uncomfortable. :laugh:

[sandgrubber]

So this begs the question. Are there some behaviours that can be quelled by raising the dog a certain way or will the congenital behaviours always be there? Say a trotting horse was bred to race but raised as a trail horse, would that horse still naturally want to trot or is that a an inherent but equally learned behaviour? The horse was born with the genes and ability to trot but will it do it naturally if raised not to? I guess I'm asking is inheriting dog aggression enough to warrant even the best trained/handled dog being watched like a hawk? If pushed to their threshold will they naturally lean to dog aggression? Interested on views.

You also need to consider how widespread and how strong the genes are in the breed. Given that dog fighting was outlawed in 1835 in England, the motivation to breed for fighting dogs has been reduced. Not gone, cause legislation didn't stop dog fighting entirely, and fighting remained legal much longer in some places outside England; but reduced. This leaves 170 years where fighting was not a primary focus. I'd say this is analogous to asking if the Olde English sheepdog was going to have herding instincts, despite being raised as a pet. Some of 'em will. Some of 'em won't. Some in-between, which will be influenced by training. With Labradors, we can make a retriever out of almost any pup, but with some of them you have to start early and work hard. For others it's natural. And you get some who won't look at a tennis ball, but given a bird, there's no stopping them.

Edited November 9, 2013 by sandgrubber