Cosmolo Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Agreed oSoSwift. Thanks for that Kanae- really interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyE Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Without reading all the comments. Anything whether it be a collar, a choker, a halti, harness etc can cause harm if in the wrong hands!! I use half checks and chokers ..i have kind hands so there is nothing cruel about them when it comes to myself or my partner using these 'tools'. OSoSwift - In regards to spurs, that is so true, I have seen first hand horses sides cut and bleeding actually a lady i used to know when i was riding my old horse begged me to get off now normally she is an OK rider well when she got off of my old horse he was bleeding from her spurs, I used spurs when riding him as i was refining his aids and getting him more sensitive to my leg aids as he was a naturally lazy, desensitized horse but I was soft and didn't need to jab into his sides you just softly rub up and down, she never rode my old horse again!! - I am not talking about dressage here, this is western. frothy mouths, most riders think it is because a horse has worked correctly which in fact is untrue, pulled in heads?? if a horse is working correctly the head carriage is natural, pushing up from behind, over the back etc easier said then done of course but it's not rocket science, for me the reins are always decoration, I used to go bridle less and do the same thing as when i had a bridle on my horses, it's great fun too!! I find this all very interesting :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 I also have to say I have seen true collection with nothing on a horses head full stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 That is true but most of the demonstrations that are done of horses doing dressage (not western or other work) bitless are on horses that have been trained with bits, then because of the training they have had, they are also able to do the movements without. It's a shame there is alot of anti bit, anti spur type sentiment- guess the same as there is anti dog training equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 I also have to say I have seen true collection with nothing on a horses head full stop. Not to mention no one on the horses back.. its a natural posture that can be illicited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Quite an interesting comment coming from you. I would have thought you would be quite so condeming of a whole area of anything.Not all dressage horses are frothy mouthed pulled in anything. Many are light, engaged and not forced. Spurs like anything can be used lightly with good judgment and very quiet legs for precision. Yes there are rednecks who rip horses sides up I have seen them myself, but not everyone. I have seen horses in true collection with no bit in their mouth, can't say they are jammed up. As I say, for someone who advocates it isn't the tool it is the person on the end of it, I am suprised. I'm not condeming a whole area, it's the people that come with the territory a lot of the time. When I was doing it I couldn't avoid them unfortunately so that's why I left it behind - that and watching people consider beating a foal with a truck chain acceptable put me off. Plenty of people I know still into horses and dressage that are not like that at all but I like peace and quiet :laugh: it's also why I stay out of a lot of group dog things, plenty of nice people but a few idiots that make it misery. My comment was at the other comment of horses with scars down the side - spurs for the sake of the idiot thinking they're awesome and not being used properly to improve performance and communicate with the horse. I have my own horse as well who knows dressage but is not fit enough to make a good go of it, and I would like to get back into it one day as a hobby. I loved it and still do :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 foal - truck chain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 foal - truck chain Gun, shoot idiot human..................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cali Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 honestly in the last year or so I have seen dog after dog after dog coming into my work with collapsed trachea's do to pulling on collars, been there for 5 years and I have only seen this in the last year. I don't know what changed, but it freaked me out enough that I switched all my dogs to harness for walks. though I still use collars for quick outings and ID. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I thought the only major risk with collars was if your dog escaped it could possibly get caught and strangle them? Me too. Though I've heard that martingale collars are better than flat collars for Pugs because they apply an even pressure around the whole of the neck and not just at the front where the trachea is. eta I mean for training. My Pug wears a harness. Martingales still put pressure on the front of the neck, they still have a limited choke. They are very useful for dogs whose necks are bigger then their heads though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 honestly in the last year or so I have seen dog after dog after dog coming into my work with collapsed trachea's do to pulling on collars, been there for 5 years and I have only seen this in the last year. I don't know what changed, but it freaked me out enough that I switched all my dogs to harness for walks. though I still use collars for quick outings and ID. They must be pulling damn hard and consistantly to do that much damage. Are you sure this is no genetic compontent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 (edited) honestly in the last year or so I have seen dog after dog after dog coming into my work with collapsed trachea's do to pulling on collars, been there for 5 years and I have only seen this in the last year. I don't know what changed, but it freaked me out enough that I switched all my dogs to harness for walks. though I still use collars for quick outings and ID. They must be pulling damn hard and consistantly to do that much damage. Are you sure this is no genetic compontent? Or perhaps they are unwisely/incorrectly attempting corrections made by famous trainers .. where collars are placed high up on the neck ? Edited November 10, 2013 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 honestly in the last year or so I have seen dog after dog after dog coming into my work with collapsed trachea's do to pulling on collars, been there for 5 years and I have only seen this in the last year. I don't know what changed, but it freaked me out enough that I switched all my dogs to harness for walks. though I still use collars for quick outings and ID. Again, not the collar but being allowed to pull on the lead so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cali Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 positive methodes and front attach harness' s are far and away the most prevalent methods in my area, and a few years ago when I almost never saw such problems, the tv trainer corrections were far more prevalent. these are all young dogs I am seeing this in, not dogs from those days. I have been seeing it more in Labs and Huskies then any other breeds so it could have some sorta genetic component but it could also just be that those breeds are likely to pull hard lol. its obviously something I am not the only one to notice because an increasing number of my clients have been switching to harnesses under reccomendations of the small private pet stores, training clubs and vetrinarians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 (edited) Hi All, At the risk of being shot down in flames - here's my theory based on a frightening, expensive sample of one and the usual shoddy net 'science' and extensive human head and neck knowledge as a Speech Pathologist. The short story - Mac had life saving laryngeal tie back surgery to clear his obstructed airway (laryngeal paralysis (LP) paralysed vocal cords). - cost all up 4.2k back in June. At first I was told by the vet that collars are not the cause - of any type. However there appears to be some growing ad hoc information, some from vets, which suggest this might not be the case and to be wary. As a Speechie and acknowledging a thicker muscle sheath in canines, I still think there is still plenty of room for caution. The issue is not in my view a question of muscular coverage but nerve damage. The canine larynx is fragile and complex - like humans - and is innervated by the 10th cranial nerve - the Vagus - which comes off the base of the brain. It's one of the most complex cranial nerves which provides sensory and motor innervation to the larynx and pharynx amongst other neck structures. It's path follows closely the carotid artery and is relatively close to the neck surface. It bifurcates and the part which innervates the larynx is the recurrent laryngeal nerve (left and right). Its route and sheer length compared with other cranial nerves makes it more susceptible to damage. And it's located right at the point where most collars appear to sit. There appears to be growing discussion (note: I did not say evidence) that these nerves can be easily damaged unilaterally or more rarely bilaterally. Choke chain injuries, tight slip collars, or any rope around the neck can fracture the hyoid bone and/or potentially cause compression damage to the nerves of the canine pharynx and larynx. I recognise there is also growing research suggesting a genetic base to LP. Again in my view it's not either or - eg could collars in genetically susceptible dogs cause damage? Or could collars cause the damage by themselves? I don't know. But either way, given many people think nothing of yanking their dogs around by the neck, and after almost losing Mac, my dogs will never wear collars around their sensitive neck structures again. Happy for others to think otherwise . But until we know for sure one way or another, it's no collars here ever again. Edited November 10, 2013 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 I would personally never place a collar on a pug. Westiemum, your post above makes me think I've made the right decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Anne I agree - and while the jury is definitely out, after my experience with Mac and knowing the structure function and innervation of the larynx as I do, I've decided to be very cautious and only use harnesses which distribute pressure eg across the chest and not concentrate it around the neck. I think there's really room here for a serious study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maeby Fünke Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Thank you for this westiemum. It makes a lot of sense. I feel I have made the right decision buying a quick release collar for my Pug - not for walking, he has a harness for walking, but for ID tags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 (edited) Good idea MF. And when you're ready to replace the harness, you might like to look at an Ezy Dog quick fit harness. As well as being completely adjustable for a good fit, it has a loop on the side for ID tags - so no need for a collar at all. As I stressed, I'm no canine expert. But if thinking about what you put around a dogs neck and what you do with it stops just one person going through the fright, misery and expense that I went through with Mac it's really worthwhile until we know more. I don't want to scare people but I don't think you have to be a genius to work out that even gentle pulling and correction around a dogs neck, particularly if it's repeated may damage fragile neck structures. Edited November 10, 2013 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maeby Fünke Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 The only problem is I would like him to wear his ID tags during the day at home as well (when he isn't wearing his harness). Thanks for the recommendation for the Ezy Dog harness. I will check them out :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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