Two Sires?

[Diana]

Had a facebook photo come up that Advance has a DNA kit they sell.

The question I have and tried to find: Is it allowed to use two sires for one litter in Australia?

Did read about this a long time ago but never followed what the rulings are, and couldn't find anything in the code of ethics

Just curioius.

[Sandra777]

Yes it is allowed.

Brilliant idea especially for breeds which tend to have big litters!

[Wundahoo]

Yes it is.

ANKC Regulations. Part 6 The Register and Registration Section 6 Rules for Registration

6.6 Multiple Sire Litters - Intentional or Unintentional Multiple Sired Litters (10/07, 7.2)

6.6.1 Any breeder who has either intentionally or unintentionally used multiple sires over a bitch must, when applying to register the resultant litter, submit the following documents together with the appropriate Service Certificates and Application for Registration.

6.6.1.1 DNA Test certificate in respect of each of the multiple sires used;

6.6.1.2 DNA Test certificate in respect of the Dam of the litter;

6.6.1.3 DNA Test certificates in respect of each puppy in the litter which are all required to be tested at the same time;

6.6.1.4 A certificate given by a Veterinary Surgeon providing an interpretation of the results of the DNA Tests as to the correct parentage of the litter.

6.6.2 Registration of the litter concerned will be processed based on the results provided in the Veterinary Certificate.

6.6.3 All costs associated with obtaining the certificates required are to be borne by the breeder of the litter

[Diana]

I didn't look too hard but thank you both for your replies.

I tend to like the idea, saving bitch from having two litters. Probably works better for those breeeds that tends to ahve big litters I'll say.

:-)

[alpha bet]

Don't really see the point in having two sires of one litter - after all if I use a stud dog I really like the idea of having multiple pups from the one litter to get a broad range to see what has been produced.

Generally I won't leave more than 8-9 pups on a bitch (i prefer to cull and allow the pups the best chance to feed easily - also like to keep my bitches in great condition throughout the whole process). Couldn't imagine having to source 11-14 homes for pups at the same time.... let alone put in the socialising work we do.

[Rebanne]

Don't really see the point in having two sires of one litter - after all if I use a stud dog I really like the idea of having multiple pups from the one litter to get a broad range to see what has been produced.

Generally I won't leave more than 8-9 pups on a bitch (i prefer to cull and allow the pups the best chance to feed easily - also like to keep my bitches in great condition throughout the whole process). Couldn't imagine having to source 11-14 homes for pups at the same time.... let alone put in the socialising work we do.

depends on your breed and ease of homing. In my breed dual sire litters are fantastic, if you can get pups from both sires.

[espinay2]

All of the dual sire litters I know of personally to date (all overseas though), all of the pups have ended up being from the one sire.

[Rebanne]

All of the dual sire litters I know of personally to date (all overseas though), all of the pups have ended up being from the one sire.

I know of some that have had both sires successful, but it's a gamble.

[alpha bet]

Rebanne, Have a question do you pay two full stud fees - one for each sire........?

If so would seem to be a bad economic decisions after all the bitch is the one who actually will determine the number of pups and with progesterone testing we can choose optimum time.... so provided the first stud dog is firing and you have a couple of matings you should get the best outcome... With two sires you are unlikely to get more puppies.....?

[Diva]

I considered a two sire litter but decided against it because of the odds one sire would dominate anyway and I would be wasting one lot of frozen. Numbers of puppies and stud fees didn't come in to it, if I could guarantee a small litter I would be stoked, as long as I could get the gender I wanted. Mind you, if it was an economic decision I wouldn't breed at all, lol.

[Rebanne]

Rebanne, Have a question do you pay two full stud fees - one for each sire........?

If so would seem to be a bad economic decisions after all the bitch is the one who actually will determine the number of pups and with progesterone testing we can choose optimum time.... so provided the first stud dog is firing and you have a couple of matings you should get the best outcome... With two sires you are unlikely to get more puppies.....?

I haven't done one but yes I would expect to pay 2 full stud fees but would discuss what if's with both stud dog owners. I wouldn't want more puppies. Perfect scenario would be both studs producing 3 or 4 pups each. So maxium of 6 to 8 pups would be nice. Would give me enough to pick a pup from each sire to carry one with and only a few to find homes for. Two seperate breedings may give me more to choose from but also more to find homes for. It is not easy finding good homes for greyhound pups that don't want them for free.

Economics doesn't really come into it. If I want my breed to survive I need to breed and ignore costs. Same as if I imported a dog. It would cost me $15000 min. and most likely be used 2 or 3 times. They are not like a lab or whippet where you can stud them out to help recoup costs. Import a bitch will cost the same and you may get a handful of pups to sell.

[Wundahoo]

I believe that it has a place in a breeding programme if there is a difficult choice to make regarding which sire to use.

One of my bitches has had 2 litters and I will mate her again for the third and final time...... but do I repeat the last really succesful mating or do I go with another sire that I am considering ??

It would be handy to have puppies from both potential sires. I own both and so there is not an economic factor involved re stud fees. The second sire is not a proven dog and I have no idea what he might produce but breeder's instinct tells me that it could be good. He is half brother to the first sire. It would be a huge shame to miss out on an opportunity to get something really nice from this combination but at the same time if it doesnt work it could be a waste of a potentially lovely litter if I didnt use the first sire.

This way, I could possibly get puppies from both dogs and so widen the genetic diversity a little without my bitch having to produce a fourth litter. It would enable me to learn a little about what the second sire might be capable of when comparing the half siblings from the other sire at exactly the same age and stage of development.

Of course it's also possible that I might only get pups from one sire or the other, but it's still something to contemplate.

As to one sire dominating more than the other.... mixed sire litters are very common in the non-pure bred dog world when bitches in season are not confined but roam, meet and greet all sorts of random male dogs !!!

I think that it has to do with the timing of the matings and in the case of my bitch I would do the matings with each dog quite close together.

[Dogsfevr]

Yep would do it in a heart beat & i do now people who have with both sires producing.

Its a risk you take ^ generally those that have done it used an older male with a unknown history on producing and known producer just incase.

Like mentioned in some breeds its a good risk due to selling pups & the size litters & can also open the door to fast tracking new lines in breeds with few options other than importing or semen of which these are risk options as well

[SwaY]

With two sires you are unlikely to get more puppies.....?

The bitch determines how many puppies - you could use 20 sires and still get the same amount as using one sire.

[alpha bet]

With two sires you are unlikely to get more puppies.....?

The bitch determines how many puppies - you could use 20 sires and still get the same amount as using one sire.

exactly.... just as I had said in the entire comment made.... my questioning is why bother! after all if I get 6-8 pups from one sire I have the chance to get more pups to view from the breed mix hence the chance to see more how the combination worked and choose a bitch for future.... whereas if there are 3 from one sire and 3 from another...... I have actually limited my chances for both these objectives.... not to mention the fact I might have spent twice the money on stud fees.... hence perhaps $3000 on stud fees and limited choices... doesnt really make sense.

Edited November 20, 2013 by alpha bet

[Diva]

It makes sense for those of us who want to have as few as litters as possible but are interested in more than one sire. I agree the fewer numbers means you see fewer combinations from the one pairing, but for me that woukd be outweighed by not having to breed the bitch a second time to get the second combination. The stud fee cost is irrelevant to me, money has nothing to do with why I would breed.

[poocow]

I agree Diva, money honestly doesn't come into my breeding plans.

Two sires can be useful say if you had an older dog that might have declined in fertility and a younger and more virile yet unproven son of his. Covers your bases.

[Lowenhart]

exactly.... just as I had said in the entire comment made.... my questioning is why bother! after all if I get 6-8 pups from one sire I have the chance to get more pups to view from the breed mix hence the chance to see more how the combination worked and choose a bitch for future.... whereas if there are 3 from one sire and 3 from another...... I have actually limited my chances for both these objectives.... not to mention the fact I might have spent twice the money on stud fees.... hence perhaps $3000 on stud fees and limited choices... doesnt really make sense.

You haven't reached the situation, that's fine.

I tried a dual sire. Older bitch, last try to get her in whelp before she was too old. She'd been pregnant before to sire 1, but she lost the pups at 7 1/2 weeks (reabsorbed them). So I decided to use a sire 1 and a younger dog sire 2. If the problem was with sire 1, then sire 2 was an excellent alternative choice. Both dogs sperm was collected and checked as excellent, the bitch became pregnant and monitored her entire pregnancy. We got 3 puppies! She was a good mum, fed them well and each puppy is being shown.

And the sire?

Sire 1.

Stud fees weren't an issue as I owned both. I just wanted to cover all my bases. Turns out the bitch had the 3 pups in 1 horn, as her other horn was diseased. That probably contributed to her losing the previous litter.

Would I do it again? Absolutely! It was a shame that none were from the younger dog, but I got 3 quality pups from a combination I'd been wanting for 6 years. If I'd had just 1 pup from sire 2, I'd have been chuffed. My litters are normally 2-4 pups, you get used to limited choices.