Border Collie Collapse

[Vickie]

Isn't BCC different to heatstroke/stress?

I've seen a few sheepdogs (kelpies & BCs) get wobbly or collapse when working, including one of my own, but they have been isolated incidences, rather than the condition that the OP is talking about. One of the theories given to me when Trim collapsed was that she doesn't work with her mouth open, so isn't releasing the heat through panting. She only did it once though & certainly doesn't have BCC.

He had a working BC (not related to pedigree BC's at all)who was a short coat who suffered EIC...I know of other working sheep dogs who have the condition, so before some go off on pedigrees - it is not just a pedigree dog related issue.

When you say "pedigree" are you meaning only ANKC pedigreed? Or all the working pedigreed BCs as well?

Edited November 2, 2013 by Vickie

[ness]

This is taken directly from the website re heatstroke Vickie

"A commonly asked question is how to differentiate BCC episodes from recurrent heat exhaustion or heat stroke. For years, dogs with episodes of BCC have been labeled as “heat intolerant” because collapse is most likely to occur in hot weather. Dogs with BCC certainly are hot after exercise but their body temperatures are not higher than normal dogs performing the same exercise so it is not simply overheating causing collapse. Also it is important to recognize that the collapse episodes we see in dogs with BCC are very different from those associated with actual heat stroke. Heat stroke severe enough to cause mentation changes, gait abnormalities and collapse in a dog will be life-threatening and often fatal. Recovery, if it does occur, is slow and prolonged (hours to days) even with intensive treatment. Laboratory evaluation reveals a dramatic increase in the muscle enzyme CK and many affected dogs develop acute kidney failure. More than 80% of dogs collapsed due to heat stroke exhibit mentation changes that are severe, progressive and persistent (for hours to days). Damage to blood vessel walls leads to widespread clot formation, damage to multiple organs, low platelet numbers and often widespread bleeding. In contrast, dogs with BCC-related collapse episodes show no laboratory abnormalities and recover quickly – returning to normal within 5 to 30 minutes. Besides the severity of collapse episodes, the recurrent nature of BCC-related episodes and the fact that collapse can occur even on days with moderate or cool ambient temperatures helps to distinguish BCC from heat-related illness."

[Vickie]

This is taken directly from the website re heatstroke Vickie

". Recovery, if it does occur, is slow and prolonged (hours to days) even with intensive treatment. Laboratory evaluation reveals a dramatic increase in the muscle enzyme CK and many affected dogs develop acute kidney failure. More than 80% of dogs collapsed due to heat stroke exhibit mentation changes that are severe, progressive and persistent (for hours to days). Damage to blood vessel walls leads to widespread clot formation, damage to multiple organs, low platelet numbers and often widespread bleeding. In contrast, dogs with BCC-related collapse episodes show no laboratory abnormalities and recover quickly – returning to normal within 5 to 30 minutes. Besides the severity of collapse episodes, the recurrent nature of BCC-related episodes and the fact that collapse can occur even on days with moderate or cool ambient temperatures helps to distinguish BCC from heat-related illness."

Thanks Ness, that's interesting. When Trim collapsed, I pick her up & ran to the dam. Within 5 minutes, she was totally normal & it happened about 6 years ago. I guess she was one of the lucky ones who recovered quickly & suffered no damage from it.

The dogs I have seen at trials with heatstroke have also recovered quickly & continue to work without recurrence or damage.

[ness]

It may be like heat exhaustion in humans the quicker its treated the less likely they are to continue to suffer and if recognised early a better chance of no ill effects. Also wonder if the metabolic changes are still present just asymptomatic. I think the huge difference with the BCC is that you are likely to get a more than an isolated episode and they do happen in conditions when heat exhaustion is less likely to be defined as the cause. I think it wasn't until Kenz's first winter that we were really certain it was anything more then just heat exhaustion.

[SonnyBC]

It has been many years since I have had a dog with EIC (Exercise Induced Collapse)/BCC. (gee. just worked out it is now 10 years ago). Sadly my Jemma died when she was just 8 years old

Back then, it was not well known in BC's. They had just found the condition in Labs in Canada. I have nothing down from her, and while I have kept abreast of some of the new research - I am not fully up to date.

• In Jemma, the attacks started about 18 months of age and continued until she died. Although Once I learnt the signs, I could in most cases prevent an attack, or at least limit the severity/length of time of an attack
  
• I have found not always exercise triggered an episode. Jemma LOVED to please and also do tricks - if she got worked up or excited, she could bring on an attack.
  
• I also found once an attack happened, the next one could be quick to follow. YOU need to allow time (dependant on each dog) for the "toxin" in the muscles to exit the system ( I will use "toxin" in this case as a descriptive only).
  
• I also found exercising in or through water reduced episodes.
  
• Only exercise in the coolest part of the day if possible near water
  
• If an attack happens - immediately get the dog to lie in a water or keep water flowing over the stomach area to cool the dog down. Remove any toys or stimulus. Keep the dog calm
  
• Keep your dog lean - if the dog is fat/carrying excess weight get the weight off. Jemma LOVED her food and if she was more than "working dog" thin, this increased the chances of an attack
  
• Learn the signs - Mine was Jemma's tongue would start to go a very dark red/purple colour - if this happens - cool the dog down and keep them calm.
  
• Always carry a bucket and water with you in the car - now you can buy those collapsible silicon ones that fold flat. I cannot tell you how many times that saved me.
  
• Realise now that there will be activities (EG: possibly dog park) that you will no longer be able to do. Your dog now has a medical condition - so you will need to modify your activities/sports/games etc to allow for this.
  

I first learnt about it from a working sheep dog trailer (this is back in 2003). He had a working BC (not related to pedigree BC's at all)who was a short coat who suffered EIC. When he trialed, he would keep two 20L buckets of water at the gate. IF the sheep were overally difficult - he would withdraw the dog. If the dog showed signs of an impending attack he would withdraw from the run and dunk her in the buckets. I know of other working sheep dogs who have the condition, so before some go off on pedigrees - it is not just a pedigree dog related issue.

Clipping a BC does not help the heat/heat stress. The coat is a double insulator and will act both ways to keep the dog warm and also cool them. I live in a super high paralysis tick area as well (currently we are pulling up to 6 off a day). I do not clip my dogs. They are on tick preventative as well as twice daily physical checks. I also run three clam shells of water in my yard for them to dig and cool themselves down if needed. Clipping the coat changes the texture and function of the coat.

TY lots of useful info

With Jemma, can I ask how she died, did you feel it was due to BCC,

we have a shell in the backyard under a shed downpipe that he likes to walk in, and we hose him down after each play as it seems to help him cool down.

I haven't been game to try him on a slow run at all, even a short one, since the attacks started as I fear being out and not having access to water for him. I take a bottle with me on our walks to pour on him if needed. When at the beach once he starts fatiguing he takes himself into the water, though he also tries to drink the water, so I am thinking I need to have water with me then as well.

Though hes supposed to be pure BC, his parents don't have papers (that I am aware of), so I cannot even say if hes 100% pedigree or even if theres a mix somewhere in there. The breeder (not registered) has been told of his collapses and is ignoring me. really curious if he has any siblings with the issue as shes breed her 2 for a few years and I know of at least one other litter last year from the same 2 parents.

[SonnyBC]

I notice in intense play, he closes his mouth (mentioned about) he gets into focus mode, and is that highly focused on the play. I have tried different ways to get him to relax between throws (by ignoring him, calling him over, doing obedience work, food (though he isn't food orientated))

I think its partly overheating, overexcitment and wonder at brain swelling (his blindness and deafness in the dazes), though not heat stroke, he does recover in 5-10minutes, and is usually wanting more play within that time.

I have a video of his daze, so may look at uploading it to that site. He is a little different than the other videos I have seen as he does just walk/stumble and does not seem to hear or see, and will walk straight into things.

[SonnyBC]

Also definitely not an isolated incident and not just related to the hotter weather, even with watching him closely hes had at least 3 episodes this week. And that's being super careful :'(

[Mystiqview]

Isn't BCC different to heatstroke/stress?

I've seen a few sheepdogs (kelpies & BCs) get wobbly or collapse when working, including one of my own, but they have been isolated incidences, rather than the condition that the OP is talking about. One of the theories given to me when Trim collapsed was that she doesn't work with her mouth open, so isn't releasing the heat through panting. She only did it once though & certainly doesn't have BCC.

He had a working BC (not related to pedigree BC's at all)who was a short coat who suffered EIC...I know of other working sheep dogs who have the condition, so before some go off on pedigrees - it is not just a pedigree dog related issue.

When you say "pedigree" are you meaning only ANKC pedigreed? Or all the working pedigreed BCs as well?

Vicki - I have heard it bandied around that XYZ pedigree is responsible for this and that and it is only a ANKC pedigree issue. However from my friend with working sheep dogs, it is obviously not just a ANKC pedigree issue. That was all my point. Certainly not a dig at any pedigree or show vs working dog.

[Mystiqview]

Sonny BC,

I don't know the reason she died other than she had a massive growth in her about the size of a football. The vet thought it was either an enflamed liver/kidney or another form of growth. Apart from the collapse she used to have bouts of incontinence as she got around 6 years of age. The only way mum picked it up was she was doing a lot of bowing type stretches and mum took her to the vet. After and ultrasound and xray - we found the growth. She was put on pain meds and we were told she about about 24-48 hours. To look at her you would not know she was so sick. We did not do a PM in favour of bringing her home and burying her in her favourite sleep hole.

I don't think the EIC caused her to die, although I did not think it helped. By this stage though, we did control the amount and severity of episodes. I stopped competing with her when she was 2 years old and she just became the house lounge lizzard on retirement.

[SonnyBC]

Sonny BC,

I don't know the reason she died other than she had a massive growth in her about the size of a football. The vet thought it was either an enflamed liver/kidney or another form of growth. Apart from the collapse she used to have bouts of incontinence as she got around 6 years of age. The only way mum picked it up was she was doing a lot of bowing type stretches and mum took her to the vet. After and ultrasound and xray - we found the growth. She was put on pain meds and we were told she about about 24-48 hours. To look at her you would not know she was so sick. We did not do a PM in favour of bringing her home and burying her in her favourite sleep hole.

I don't think the EIC caused her to die, although I did not think it helped. By this stage though, we did control the amount and severity of episodes. I stopped competing with her when she was 2 years old and she just became the house lounge lizzard on retirement.

Ty and so sad for your loss , we have a 13 year old golden retriever who took a turn last year (just age) and we were told it was getting close to time to say goodbye, but over a year later and shes doing better than ever, just the thought of saying goodbye was devastating.

hubby took him for a run today (he got up while I was still sleeping) took him for 7-8km including a big hill. He loved it and didn't have any sign of collapse.

I think we need to be changing the ball play for runs instead (need to get my lazy butt running again)

[SonnyBC]

Sorry guys haven't been back, been going through some tough times, having to put my 13 1/2 y.o. golden retriever to sleep :'( (she had a stroke) damn hardest thing I have had to face, and the kids are taking it really hard, as I got her when they were babies and she has been part of their whole lives to this point.

My BC is doing GREAT, the vet didn't originally test for CL, but I asked specifically and it was done, it all come back clear!

Vet says probably BCC, (though cannot be 100% sure, though really the symptons are there)

Sadly I see the parents owners selling another litter of pups so obviously she didn't listen or care about BCC, though she says mum and dad have never done that, though shes a bigger lady who doesn't walk or play with her dogs so probably why she hasn't seen signs.

He hasn't had a full collapse for over a month! he tends now to stop himself, he gets to a point and will take his toy (ball, football) and lie under a nearby tree for a few minutes, when that happens I give him some time then end the play, he gets a drink, if its hot a hose down. And hes left to rest.

Also have started running with him (slow steady), he copes really well, no collapse with runs (up to 8km) not game to try further though.

Edited December 20, 2013 by SonnyBC

[BC Crazy]

Oh SonnyBC. So sorry to hear of the loss of your beloved families Goldie It is such a difficult time for us & especially

your children. Very heart breaking RIP Miss Goldie girl

I don't know a lot about BCC. It sounds like a dreadful thing. There is another Doler, ness, who has a BC with it. She is lovely. A fountain of knowledge & may be able to inform on this wickedly cruel ailment. So very sad when we know how BC's love to be active

I have a BC called Sonny as well. Great choice of names :p

[SonnyBC]

Hehe, my name is Sonny (as in nick name for Sonja) my BC is called "Coach" as we got him for a running companion and he was really good at coming to the gym with us and watching us do all the hard work.

Oh SonnyBC. So sorry to hear of the loss of your beloved families Goldie It is such a difficult time for us & especially

your children. Very heart breaking RIP Miss Goldie girl

I don't know a lot about BCC. It sounds like a dreadful thing. There is another Doler, ness, who has a BC with it. She is lovely. A fountain of knowledge & may be able to inform on this wickedly cruel ailment. So very sad when we know how BC's love to be active

I have a BC called Sonny as well. Great choice of names :p

[BC Crazy]

Oh so sorry SonnyBC Just take my very large foot out of my mouth. Love your nic name then :laugh:

[SonnyBC]

hehe, that's ok, usually I am the one with my foot in my mouth, its a pain of a nick name really as most people assume I am male and pronounce it Sunny :)

Trying upload a pic of my golden girl but geez its hard getting the file size down enough have the most beautiful photos, one of her as a pup with my kids (9 months and 2years) and one taken yesterday before she was put to sleep with my children 17 and 14!

[BC Crazy]

Very sad looking forward to the photos. Very hard for you & kids having grown up with her. My step son grew up with my red & white BC, Redman, till his late teens. Red's death hit him very hard. Still talks about him with some wonderful warm memories. He has adored dogs ever since & now has a rescue Dob who he is besotted with :)

[SonnyBC]

finally got photo up, though really small, but love these shots, just over 13 years between photos

Miss 14 is struggling with her being gone keeps saying that she was always there with her, shes never not had her near.

My BC is also a little sad keeps looking at her bed, and very much crying and needing to be near us today.

Edited December 20, 2013 by SonnyBC

[kelpiechick]

Some interesting reading on the topic here : Agility Net

Haven't had personal experience with this (thank goodness, it sounds scary) but I remember there was a dog on the US Agility World team a few years back that died from suspected EIC during a training session. Good to hear you haven't had any more episodes, hope it all works out for you.

[BC Crazy]

Beautiful photo's SonnyBC

[SonnyBC]

It was great to find somewhere I could get info and experiences on BCC, up until having this boy I didn't even know such a thing existed :/ and it is scarey to see, but so happy to find that it can be controlled, and he can lead a full and happy life. Hope they get some scientific data on the disorder, and what it really is about, and hopefully stupid breeders (like the one I got Coach from) don't keep bringing pups into the world that will be prone to the disorder.