2 Topics In 1 Breed Recognition And Registries

[Angeluca]

Ok so this is not a crossbred promotion rather then the development of new breeds, I myself don't know much about it and my guess is neither do a lot of other.

How do they get recognized? ANKC and any other means?

ANKC guidelines and requirements?

registries what makes them legitimate does the government need to recognized the registry first?

How many breeders must be involved or different gene pools to develop the breed on?

How many said dog to said dog breeding does it take to classify pure or it that in a registries discretion?

Are they pure before a recognized registry has proclaimed them to be or are they just crosses or developments 'concepts' until then?

Once recognized are they only classified pedigree from that generation on or are previous papers recognized within the development?

In regards to the purebred and pedigree argument. I think the purebred label has been misused and there fore lost a lot of credibility . People claiming to have pure breds from developing breeds, ethical breeder bred or otherwise. People developing false papers for their 2 different pedigree dogs puppies or dodgy internet registries for fraudulent purposes.

You can't blame someone for assuming a mutt when the parentage can't be verified after all these examples of missuses.

But where did the purebred dog go then? within a recognized and common breed most people know the look they are supposed to have. But when small difference show people assume a cross unless pedigree, then pending the difference severity the next assumption is poorly bred.

But there are different styles in alot of breeds, GSD is probably most common and distinctive, but so many others do too and alot of it comes down to flavour of the month at shows, or distinguishing working lines and show.

What are peoples thoughts?

[Leah82]

I know a lot of people say a purebred dog without pedigree can never be confirmed as a purebred because there's no lineage details.

As far as I'm concerned if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, then it's probably a duck.

If both parents and offspring are within breed standards then who's to say it's not a purebred.

Isn't that the point of breed standards?

If I'm at the park and someone tells me their dog is a purebred beagle and it looks exactly like a beagle, who I am to say it's not just because it doesn't have papers?

[Diva]

Ok so this is not a crossbred promotion rather then the development of new breeds, I myself don't know much about it and my guess is neither do a lot of other.

How do they get recognized? ANKC and any other means?

ANKC guidelines and requirements?

To answer the easiest part of your question, the requirements for ANKC recognition are publicly available on their website, they include requirements for breeds already recognised by an ANKC recognised overseas registry, which I will not paste here to save length, and also for those which are not, as below.

ANKC Ltd Regulation Part 6, Clause

10.2 Requirements for the recognition of any breed which is not yet recognised in its

Country of Origin or Development (05/00)

10.2.1 Any new breed or breed of dog under development must have a unique

breed name, and is not a combination of recognised breed names or part of a

recognised breed name and it must be pertinent to the purpose of the breed.

(02/08) (Amended 10/09, 6.3.5)

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10.2.2 That there be a parent breed club sponsoring the breed.

The parent club to be an organisation (usually an Incorporated Body)

covering the whole of Australia that has acted as the Stud Book

Register for the breed for a minimum of fifteen [15] years. This

organisation has been keeping records of all dogs bred in the breed

in Australia. Not as some people misunderstand that the breed has

been around for fifteen [15] years. (10/02)

10.2.3 The parent breed club to supply:

An authenticated copy of the Breed Standard

General information of the breed, such as additional text expanding

on the breed standard, photographs and diagrams to allow ANKC Ltd

to prepare an appropriate Breed Standard Extension. The importer

shall also provide written approval for the use of this material. (10/06,

6.1.2)

Details of the history and numbers registered

10.2.4 ANKC Ltd to assess whether the breed is considered sufficiently viable

from the above information, taking into account that:

10.2.4.1 Minimum Number of dogs registered be 500

That at the time of application there must be 500 dogs of the breed

alive and all of the 500 dogs must be entire (none of them to be

neutered). (10/02)

10.2.4.2 Minimum time the breed has been in existence be 15 years.

That there has been a parent club (usually an Incorporated Body)

covering the whole of Australia that has acted as the Stud Book

Register for the breed for a minimum period of fifteen [15] years.

Not that someone has been breeding the breed for fifteen [15]

years. (10/02)

10.2.4.3 Minimum time the breed has been in existence be 15 years.

This means that only those dogs with a 5-generation pedigree will

be eligible for acceptance on to ANKC Ltd register at the time, if

and when, the breed is adopted as an official ANKC Ltd Breed.

The 5-generation pedigree does not apply to the 500 dogs on the

Register. (10/02)

10.2.5 The following requirements from Section 9.1 Requirements for the

Recognition of Any Breed which is recognised in its Country of Origin or

Development shall also apply. These requirements are: (10/06, 6.1.2)

10.2.6 The Breed Standards Coordinator collates the above and checks the

translation of the Standard into English where appropriate.

10.2.7 The Administrator circulates the Standard and additional information to all

member bodies for comment and formal adoption at the next conference.

10.2.8 Breeds recognised from the 1st July to the 31st December shall be shall be

eligible for entry on to the purebred register forthwith and shall be effective

from the 1st July the following year for exhibition purposes. (10/06, 6.1.2)

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10.2.9 Breeds recognised from the 1st January to the 30th June shall be shall be

eligible for entry on to the purebred register forthwith and shall be effective

from the 1st January the following year for exhibition purposes. (10/06, 6.1.2)

10.2.10 When a new breed arrives in Australia, the breed the Standards Coordinator

and the Administrator must be notified. [Added 16/10/97]

10.3 The Non Consideration of a New Breed

ANKC Ltd will not consider the recognition of a new breed where the dogs have been

registered with an overseas Canine Controlling Body that is not recognised by ANKC

Ltd (such as the United Kennel Club). (10/06, 6.1.2)

Edited October 25, 2013 by Diva

[Remarkabull]

So The Australasian Bosdog Society is aiming for ANKC recognition and have ticked many of the boxes mentioned above. I'm pretty sure one of the things we are struggling with is having 500 entire dogs on the registry, although as time goes by that should become less of an issue. They're would be 500 out there but they are not active members of the ABS, just puppy buyers/owners with no interest in breeding or being a member. Some breeders are up to producing 7th generation pups and the breed has been around for more than 15 years now.

I think one of the problems for this breed is that there are a few different registries and they are definitely not aiming for the same things and that can confuse people. I can't tell you how many times I've been asked what 'percentage' my dogs are. I then have to explain that we no longer cross breed so don't use BB in our breedings and haven't for many years now and so we don't measure the percentage of BB in the dogs as they are not BB.

The other registries are also starting to go down the 'rare blue' path, which is sad. I've noticed that a couple of their breeders have imported blue BB and are charging $3500 for blue pups and also promoting that they have blue in their lines.

AFAIC my dogs are purebred and they meet the standard set by the ABS and although there is some difference in the appearance of different lines, nearly every ABD (Australasian Bosdog) I've ever met or talked to owners about has the same temperament. They are funny, goofy, a little bit stubborn, dog/people/animal friendly (they adore children) and just love everyone and enjoy life.

I'm not for indiscriminate cross breeding, or just letting any 2 dogs breed because they can but I'm certainly not against people wanting to and trying to create a new breed as long as it's done for the right reasons.

[Angeluca]

So The Australasian Bosdog Society is aiming for ANKC recognition and have ticked many of the boxes mentioned above. I'm pretty sure one of the things we are struggling with is having 500 entire dogs on the registry, although as time goes by that should become less of an issue. They're would be 500 out there but they are not active members of the ABS, just puppy buyers/owners with no interest in breeding or being a member. Some breeders are up to producing 7th generation pups and the breed has been around for more than 15 years now.

I think one of the problems for this breed is that there are a few different registries and they are definitely not aiming for the same things and that can confuse people. I can't tell you how many times I've been asked what 'percentage' my dogs are. I then have to explain that we no longer cross breed so don't use BB in our breedings and haven't for many years now and so we don't measure the percentage of BB in the dogs as they are not BB.

The other registries are also starting to go down the 'rare blue' path, which is sad. I've noticed that a couple of their breeders have imported blue BB and are charging $3500 for blue pups and also promoting that they have blue in their lines.

AFAIC my dogs are purebred and they meet the standard set by the ABS and although there is some difference in the appearance of different lines, nearly every ABD (Australasian Bosdog) I've ever met or talked to owners about has the same temperament. They are funny, goofy, a little bit stubborn, dog/people/animal friendly (they adore children) and just love everyone and enjoy life.

I'm not for indiscriminate cross breeding, or just letting any 2 dogs breed because they can but I'm certainly not against people wanting to and trying to create a new breed as long as it's done for the right reasons.

So are the recognized as bosdogs but the general public or do you still introduce them as both or either? and Approximately how many breeders within your society ?

Sorry just curious

[LisaCC]

A lot of the general public that I talk to see the Australasian Bosdog as a true breed, but most don't know about the name change yet :)

Same with other breeds not recognised by the ANKC for example the Koolie and Bull Arab. Most people (well rurally at least), will see and know what these dogs are. For some reason I feel like I'm missing another really obvious example...

Most people think my Pedigreed Aussie shepherd is a Koolie cross

Edited October 25, 2013 by LisaCC

[Remarkabull]

Pretty much like Lisacc said. Most people know what they are but don't know that there are different registries that have very different aims or that there was a name change to fit in with ANKC guidelines. I suppose that's why I get asked about percentages when people enquire about pups as they have usually googled the breed and seen the websites of the other registries. As far as I know we are the only group that no longer uses other breeds for breeding.

Recently the ABS has been issuing all pups with limited papers which can be upgraded to main once the dog has been hip and elbow scored and the results are below the cut off point.

I'm not sure how many breeders are registered with ABS, I'll have to ask them and I'll get back to you :)

[sandgrubber]

I know a lot of people say a purebred dog without pedigree can never be confirmed as a purebred because there's no lineage details.

As far as I'm concerned if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, then it's probably a duck.

If both parents and offspring are within breed standards then who's to say it's not a purebred.

There are alternate registries that take this approach. Here's the policy of the Continental KC (continent seems to be North America...unfortunate name cause CKC is also the Canadian Kennel Club). In my region (deep South) you see a lot of ads for dogs with CKC registration.

PAW Registration Application

The PAW Program was established by the Continental Kennel Club to apply for registration of a purebred dog for which the original registration records have been lost or the ancestry is undocumented. The PAW Program uses specific photographs of the applicant canine and the verification of witnesses to determine if the canine is eligible for registration with the Continental Kennel Club. The PAW Registration Application must be completed and submitted to apply for registration.

View and download the PAW Evaluation & Registration Program Requirements right here. To request a PAW Registration Application by mail, please contact the CKC Customer Service Center at 1-800-952-3376. Representatives are available Monday through Friday from 8AM - 12PM and 1PM - 5PM(CST).

For working dogs and breeds like many of the hounds, where 'folk' traditions are strong and owners often have anti-establishment views, it seems to me that such registration is useful. Also for breeds where genetic diversity is significantly depleted and the main registry isn't letting in new blood. Also widely used where odd colors that aren't recognized by the main kennel club (eg,, parti-colored poodles, red,blue or grey Boston Terriers).

There is a lot not to like about the AKC, and I'm sometimes tempted to shift to a registry that is more liberal about registrations. But doing so risks being branded a BYB.

[Steve]

One of the biggest problems for any purebreed in development is that the politics is lethal. Many that start never get to where they are going because they splinter off and go in different ways. This would probably be the case with any breed if it was possible for them to do it. The ANKC dont get involved until it all sorted and the breed has finished its journey and fits the criteria.

The MDBA in this country offers the ability for the developing breeds to use us as a third party arms length foundation registry which cant be affected by politics in order to keep accurate records of the pedigrees and lineage.This makes it easier and much less risky for those working toward breed development until they reach the criteria required for ANKC recognition if that's the goal they are after.

Our criteria for MDBA breed recognition for entry into our full stud registry is a little more relaxed than the ANKC's but the procedure is the same though there is less emphasis on the show ring and we are not as eager to have closed stud books.

[Angeluca]

Pretty much like Lisacc said. Most people know what they are but don't know that there are different registries that have very different aims or that there was a name change to fit in with ANKC guidelines. I suppose that's why I get asked about percentages when people enquire about pups as they have usually googled the breed and seen the websites of the other registries. As far as I know we are the only group that no longer uses other breeds for breeding.

Recently the ABS has been issuing all pups with limited papers which can be upgraded to main once the dog has been hip and elbow scored and the results are below the cut off point.

I'm not sure how many breeders are registered with ABS, I'll have to ask them and I'll get back to you :)

Your registry sounds very professional,

So what happens when they are ANKC eligible, do they become the bookkeepers of the breed and your registry become a club, or do you still maintain the stud book and breeding program.

[BlackJaq]

I would just like to point out that not all breeds with all registries have their books closed, so they hold it as Leah82 said. some countries my not even have national registries. Would you deny them the right to have different breeds just because they don't conform to your view of what a breed is? (I guess this is kind of a response to your comments from the other thread)

[Angeluca]

I would just like to point out that not all breeds with all registries have their books closed, so they hold it as Leah82 said. some countries my not even have national registries. Would you deny them the right to have different breeds just because they don't conform to your view of what a breed is? (I guess this is kind of a response to your comments from the other thread)

Not denying anyone the right to have anything, but we go over and over the fraud or deliberate misleading information given to puppy buyers are given when they buy their dog.

A dog who's grandparents have more then one breed in it can not be deemed a pure bred because the parents are the exact same cross. Not all registries are legitimate which brings back to the question what makes them a registry? trying to develop a breed or a group of people trying to create a website that claims to be the governing body of a dog which they claim to be pure for the purpose of either making them feel like a proper breeder and have the ability to sell dogs for a exploded price with basically fake papers.

For every one group trying to do whats best for the style of dog they have fallen in love with (which ever way are trying to do it whether it be ANKC or other) there are many out their trying to deceive for profit or appeal to their egos.

I am not against the idea of breed development, but there is a difference between that and just saying you have a purebred.

Remarkabull how many generations ago was the last 'multiple breed generation' in your dogs? I only ask this I am trying to figure out at what point do these developments get declared a purebred. Within their own group not ANKC declared.

I realize this answer is a cat in a hat sort of question as it's a opinion, but personally don't deem anyone just saying they have a pure bred to actually be a purebred (in breed development, or designer circumstances) But Remarkabull you seem to be part of a very ethical group from what you have said and If anyone would have a realistic view within this discussion it be you.

[Steve]

well its not really a cat in the hat thing - when a stud book is open in any registry at any time a dog without that lineage is able to be entered into the gene pool and usually after 4 or 5 generations it is declared to be a purebred .

The ANKC require 5 generations from a cross when considering recognising a breed

ANKC Ltd to assess whether the breed is considered sufficiently viable

from the above information, taking into account that:

10.2.4.1 Minimum Number of dogs registered be 500

That at the time of application there must be 500 dogs of the breed

alive and all of the 500 dogs must be entire (none of them to be

neutered). (10/02)

10.2.4.2 Minimum time the breed has been in existence be 15 years.

That there has been a parent club (usually an Incorporated Body)

covering the whole of Australia that has acted as the Stud Book

Register for the breed for a minimum period of fifteen [15] years.

Not that someone has been breeding the breed for fifteen [15]

years. (10/02)

10.2.4.3 Minimum time the breed has been in existence be 15 years.

This means that only those dogs with a 5-generation pedigree will

be eligible for acceptance on to ANKC Ltd register at the time, if

and when, the breed is adopted as an official ANKC Ltd Breed.

The 5-generation pedigree does not apply to the 500 dogs on the

Register. (10/02)

Right now in the United Kingdom Kennel Club all stud books are open and anyone can enter a dog that fits certain criteria and has no registered pedigree after 4 generations its considered full register and able to be shown or bred with - or exported to Australai as a purebred.

Pedigrees show how many generations past a dog from outside the 4 or 5 generations"purebred" - note above that even though only 5 generation dogs will be on the ANKC register when the breed is approved that there may in fact only be one that's 5 generation and 500 1,2,3, or 4 generation past an infusion for the breed to be recognised.

[GeckoTree]

I dont know a single person who calls Australian Bulldogs Australasian Bossdogs, If it was Bulldog the ANKC was concerned about they may as well give french bulldogs the flick as well!

[Kajtek]

I dont know a single person who calls Australian Bulldogs Australasian Bossdogs, If it was Bulldog the ANKC was concerned about they may as well give french bulldogs the flick as well!

I know...

I parent 3 ABS registered ones and it wouldn't be the best thing to call them Boss-dogs

[Remarkabull]

My bitch is 4th generation, so by looking at her papers there is only one dog that was not a Bosdog. It is a BB and is her great, great grand sire on her sires side.

[Remarkabull]

I dont know a single person who calls Australian Bulldogs Australasian Bossdogs, If it was Bulldog the ANKC was concerned about they may as well give french bulldogs the flick as well!

I know...

I parent 3 ABS registered ones and it wouldn't be the best thing to call them Boss-dogs

The name change happened prior to me becoming a member but I understand it was voted on by financial members and this is what they decided on. Personally, I don't love it but i do love the breed so I can live with the name. I also think its important to try and distance ourselves from the other groups. Most people don't know about the correct name as it is fairly recent and like I've said, we are not the only group out there.

BTW Its Bosdog, not Bossdog :)

[Rozzie]

A lot of the general public that I talk to see the Australasian Bosdog as a true breed, but most don't know about the name change yet :)

Same with other breeds not recognised by the ANKC for example the Koolie and Bull Arab. Most people (well rurally at least), will see and know what these dogs are. For some reason I feel like I'm missing another really obvious example...

Most people think my Pedigreed Aussie shepherd is a Koolie cross

Mini Foxy

[Kajtek]

BTW Its Bosdog, not Bossdog :)

You are right of course but Boss-dog sounds better to me

[Remarkabull]

BTW Its Bosdog, not Bossdog :)

You are right of course but Boss-dog sounds better to me

Lol, in this house they could be known as 'get away with murder dogs'. It's very difficult to stay mad at those adorable faces :)