Dogs Sales And The Law

[Alibi]

The op said the owner hasn't said they want the surgery paid for just the purchase price back.

[Steve]

The op said the owner hasn't said they want the surgery paid for just the purchase price back.

Yep legally she doesn't have to pay unless they return the dog - ethically in my opinion if she is prepared to pay a refund because she thinks its her responsibility then she should do so and allow them to keep the dog.

[~Anne~]

The OP must have been assuming that they would pay the $1700 for their vet to treat it seems to me though, so why not just pay that amount?

Surely there is a way to negotiate these things.

Asking for the puppy back is asking for an argument. I wouldn't give it back if it were me and it is not logical to think that they would hand it over just because you are refunding the purchase price.

So, for clarification purposes, is the breeder legally required to compensate?

Edited October 21, 2013 by ~Anne~

[Jed]

They bought a healthy puppy at 8 weeks now 8 months later isn't healthy. I dont suppose there is a way to tell if the patellas where a result of genetic bad luck or injury caused by there household is there ? How long does the health Gaurentee from the breeder last ? If the dog develops cancer in five years is the breeder ment to pay ?

If the patella problem is medial, it is most likely genetic - according to my specialist vet.

If lateral, due to injury or incorrect exercise etc.

I bred a dog which developed a rare form of cancer at 3 years. Apparently the owners spent $5000 on treatment. It seems they wanted me to pay them some money. None of the ancestors had cancer, the siblings don't have cancer.

Breeders can be blamed for all sorts of things, unfortunately.

Fair Trading laws specify a return of the dog for a refund. And whether the breeder is required to refund the purchase price would depend on what the arbitratr in the fair trading court (VCAT etc) thought. So, it would depend on the argument each party provided

Edited October 21, 2013 by Jed

[Steve]

The OP must have been assuming that they would pay the $1700 for their vet to treat it seems to me though, so why not just pay that amount?

Surely there is a way to negotiate these things.

Asking for the puppy back is asking for an argument. I wouldn't give it back if it were me and it is not logical to think that they would hand it over just because you are refunding the purchase price.

So, for clarification purposes, is the breeder legally required to compensate?

Not necessarily. Just because you request they see your vet doesnt mean you are putting your hand up to pay for it .you may do so after the vet has informed you its something you should be held accountable for but not before.

Whether they are legally responsible depends on answers to things which are not given here.

If its proven that the breeder sold a dog which was not fit for the purpose for which it was sold at the time of sale then they must refund repair or exchange - ordinarily after 10 months - no they are not responsible but that will be impacted by the contract - if for example they have said they would cover such things for a longer time frame than a normal sale contract via consumer law would go. If they are legally required to compensate [unlikely] then they can say no dog no refund if they want to.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Steve

[minimax]

Did they have Just one patella done, or two for that price?

[brintey]

I wouldn't pay the owner anything if it is like HD and a polygenetic condition which can be caused by upbringing as well. The dog is 10 months old. Why should the breeder be liable if they have done everything in their power to prevent what they can?

And if I bred a dog and the owner wanted compensation for something like this I would definitely want it back! Primarily because I do not want my puppy in that home for a second longer because I would worry that they would have unrealistic expectations of him or her or be under the care of an opportunistic vet.

It would be an entirely different story if the dog came down with a known heritable disease which I could have genetically tested for, but decided not to. In which case I would expect that I could be sued for much more than the purchase price, especially if the disease was fatal!

[Steve]

A breeder cant just go by what the puppy buyer is telling them either. When something goes wrong puppy buyers often only hear part of what the vet is saying and or they dont understand so you have to get a written account from the vet of exactly what the problem is and what they think the cause is and the action is that they think should be taken. Many many times when you ask a puppy buyer to go back to the vet and get it in writing or ask that your vet communicate with their vet things radically change.

The whole thing is volatile because the owner is emotional and not always rational and straight out some deliberately leave bits out or add somethings in to try to get money

So to expect a breeder to simply say O.K. after a call from their puppy buyer without asking for a second opinion or even a written first opinion etc is asking too much too.

[Steph M]

And if I bred a dog and the owner wanted compensation for something like this I would definitely want it back! Primarily because I do not want my puppy in that home for a second longer because I would worry that they would have unrealistic expectations of him or her or be under the care of an opportunistic vet.

I don't quite see the link between seeking compensation for a perceived 'fault' or health issue and having unrealistic expectations of the dog.

I could be missing something but surely the two are miles apart.

If I as a first time dog owner bought a dog and something went wrong and the vet said could be genetic would the first point of contact after the vet not be the breeder? There is a lot of misinformation about what a breeder should or shouldn't cover so the owner asks if it could be covered as her vet mentioned it could be genetic.

That doesn't mean they expect ridiculous things of the dog, they just want a healthy dog and mightn't know where to look next IMO.

I don't think there's a clear cut way unless you specify what would or wouldn't be covered and up to what point in your contracts, and what happens in each case. Some negotiation may be possible, but if not, it's as stipulated in your contracts.

I have to say, I would really think twice about buying from a breeder who would demand the dog back in the case of any issues. You can't realistically expect this from a person or family.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Steph M

[brintey]

Steph M, I was speaking in my case. I have only raised one litter, and had a closed facebook group for all the puppy buyers, experienced breeder friends here and overseas, friends in the medical profession etc. Every day we had a topic for the day where subjects like medical conditions, puppy buyer expectations, breeder expectations, health problems in the breed, health testing etc were discussed (amongst many other things - eight weeks is a long time LOL). I would personally feel that if someone presented me with a large bill for surgery which may or may not have been necessary, that the puppy buyer would have misrepresented themselves and their expectations of the puppy to me. So I would want him or her back and would be willing to take out a loan to pay them out.

[~Anne~]

Why wouldn't the surgery have been necessary? That implies that the vet potentially operated on the pup needlessly and the question would have to be asked 'why would he be so incompetent to allow a pup to undergo major surgery for no reason'.

I agree with StephM, and based on what Steve has said, unless the contract was explained (assuming there is one) I think both sides are in a shitty situation. The buyer has had to go through the stress of expensive surgery on a puppy that hasn't even reached adulthood and the breeder has the risk sending the wrong message about her breeding program and having to pay up money.

I still stand by my earlier opinion - I'd compensate them financially and move on. Use this one as a lesson, not a reason to start war.

[juice]

There isn't enough background from the OP to give a proper opinion.

Why didn't the owners go to the suggested vet?

Did the breeder talk to their vet before the surgery went ahead?

Was there any contract?

How much was the purchase price.

Was it a heredity problem?

I think it would be pretty cruel to remove a pup from the home if they have done the right thing by it , after all it will have to rehomed again anyway, at no cost one would assume?

I wouldn't be parting with money unless there was a good reason they didn't use the requested vet.

[Steve]

There isn't enough background from the OP to give a proper opinion.

Why didn't the owners go to the suggested vet?

Did the breeder talk to their vet before the surgery went ahead?

Was there any contract?

How much was the purchase price.

Was it a heredity problem?

I think it would be pretty cruel to remove a pup from the home if they have done the right thing by it , after all it will have to rehomed again anyway, at no cost one would assume?

I wouldn't be parting with money unless there was a good reason they didn't use the requested vet.

Agreed and I wouldn't be parting with any money unless I was 100% convinced it was my responsibility either.

[Angeluca]

Why wouldn't the surgery have been necessary? That implies that the vet potentially operated on the pup needlessly and the question would have to be asked 'why would he be so incompetent to allow a pup to undergo major surgery for no reason'.

This happens all the time I was advized by a specialist to fuse my boys hips at 8 mths because he may get HD later his opinion is his joints were loose, he also said golden pups are known for loose hips as pups but they are also known for HD which is why he recommended the fusion. He is Highly regarded and respected in QLD.

the op is surgically fusing the growth plate in the hips the prevent the hip from expanding out with age as they normally would. It keeps them very slightly angled. this operation can only be done at age 8-9 mths. it is not guaranteed has a success rate of 80% and is purely preventative. (so who it to say that 80% would have got HD anyway)Oh and the op cost aprox $3000, once done Hip scores for Breeding are impossible.

My boy has good hip scores 5/7 and is coming up to 4 with fantastic free movement.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Angeluca

[Wundahoo]

I have a problem with a owner of one of my pups,which has developed slipping patella problems at ten month, I referred

to my Vet but owner went elsewhere, she has had the dog operated on,vet fees 5000.00.( my vet quoted 1700.00.

Owner wants me to refund her the price of the puppy, to .help with charges.

But will it end there?

Consumer Protection says owner is entitled to Refund, Repair or Replace,which I am prepared to do,but I should be able to claim the dog back.

What do people think, I would appreciate import

Unfortunately for breeders, the consumer laws in W.A. are very much to the advantage of the owner of the dog. The right of choice for repair, refund or replace sits entirely with the purchaser of the dog and the breeder can only hope that the person concerned is reasonable and fair-minded. The owner of the dog can choose which vet the dog sees and whether or not a second opinion is sought. If the owner is offered a refund with the requirement that the dog is returned to the breeder, they have the right to refuse the offer and then they usually go for the repair option which is often far more expensive than a refund of purchase price.

If the problem has a genetic basis and the owner chooses to have the problem repaired, then the breeder can be required to pay the full repair price and this can sometimes be very expensive. Even if the dog is insured, some insurance companies now have a clause in which they will cover the costs of the procedure for the owner but will then pursue the breeder (or the person deemed to be responsible for the defect) to recover the payout amount if the problem is deemed to be inherited.

If a breeder doesnt like what has been proposed by an owner the only options are to attempt to negotiate a better outcome or to go to civil court.

Very often the cheapest thing to do is to refund the purchase price. As a breeder I have found myself in this situation only once and I believed firmly that the problem was not something that I could be considered responsible for, however it was potentially going to get messy and the owner was not at all happy so it seemed. Without a moment's hesitation I wrote the owner a cheque for a full purchase price refund.

Once the owner accepted that, it was game over. They could decide to do whatever they wished and I did not legally have any further responsibility. Once an owner has accepted an offer for "compensation" then they cant come back for a second bite of the apple.

OZZIEMOM, if you refund the purchase price and have a document drawn up for both parties to sign then that should be the end of the matter for you. I would not mention that the amount was to "help with charges" just that it is a refund of full purchase price. If the owner signs that in acknowledgment then it will be seen as adequately compensating the owner.

Whatever the opinion that you might hold about the cause or your responsibility in the matter or who should have seen the dog, it's up to the owner to decide these things. Vets often disagree with causes, prognosis and treatment and so it can never really be counted upon that blame and responsibility can be placed in one field or another.

Sometime ago I purchased from another state, a very well bred puppy which was vet checked 3 days before it was flown to me. Unfortunately it arrived with a serious problem which had obviously been missed by the vet and the breeder..... how, I dont know ! I informed the puppy's breeder of the problem and said that I would take the puppy to my vet to get formal verification. I was requested to return the dog immediately without it being seen by any vet here.

As the owner of the dog I was not happy with this because I felt that the problem needed to be formally diagnosed and recorded prior to the pup's return. I was under quite some pressure from the dogs "connections" NOT to have the dog seen by a vet before I sent it back to the breeder.

As the owner of the puppy it was MY right to choose what should happen to him. I was not legally obliged to return the dog AT ALL and could decide what was the course of action that would be taken. As the owner, the ball was in my court and I was the only one that could make the decisions about repair, refund or replace. I looked at the situation from the point of view of a breeder. If I was the breeder of this puppy, how would I want things to go.....?? I chose to return the pup to the breeder, but not before it was examined by suitabley qualified specialists.

Before I returned it, the puppy was examined independently by 2 Board Certified specialist surgeons at different hospitals. Both gave the same diagnosis and both stated that the puppy needed corrective surgery as soon as possible. The specialist report and opinion was sent to the breeder of the pup and to the breeder's vet that had checked the pup before it was flown to me. The pup was returned to the breeder who took the puppy back to their vet who said that although they agreed that the problem existed (and that they had missed it in their examination), they did not recommend surgical correction at that point and suggested that the pup should be further assessed once fully grown. I know which way I thought it should have gone but once I returned the pup and accepted the refund I had no say in the matter. I didnt like it but I was between a rock and a hard place.... I wanted what I believed was in the dog's best interest but I also saw the situation from the point of view of a breeder. It was a hard decision for me to make.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Wundahoo

[espinay2]

Refund them the purchase price, take the dog back and treat it in the way you see fit as the breeder. There's is no way that someone who ignored my wishes to use my own vet would be refunded and get to keep the dog.

So you lose the right to use your own trusted vet if a problem arises when you buy a dog from you as a breeder?

Seems slightly unfair to me and I hope that's made known at time of purchase... It would certainly impact my decision.

If you want warranty repairs done and paid for by the manufacturer you can't take your purchase to just anyone, you have to take it to an 'approved repairer' who is approved by the manufacturer to do warranty repairs. And you need to have it approved under warranty before you get the repairs done. If dogs are to come under the same consumer laws, why wouldn't the same apply?

Edited October 22, 2013 by espinay2

[Wundahoo]

Refund them the purchase price, take the dog back and treat it in the way you see fit as the breeder. There's is no way that someone who ignored my wishes to use my own vet would be refunded and get to keep the dog.

So you lose the right to use your own trusted vet if a problem arises when you buy a dog from you as a breeder?

Seems slightly unfair to me and I hope that's made known at time of purchase... It would certainly impact my decision.

If you want warranty repairs done and paid for by the manufacturer you can't take your purchase to just anyone, you have to take it to an 'approved repairer' who is approved by the manufacturer to do warranty repairs. And you need to have it approved under warranty before you get the repairs done. If dogs are to come under the same consumer laws, why wouldn't the same apply?

In W.A and I believe in other states, it is the owner who has the right to decide. Once the puppy has been sold, the breeder has, in law, lost all rights. It's the ugly truth of the matter. It might seem wrong or unfair but that's the way it is.

[Steve]

I have a problem with a owner of one of my pups,which has developed slipping patella problems at ten month, I referred

to my Vet but owner went elsewhere, she has had the dog operated on,vet fees 5000.00.( my vet quoted 1700.00.

Owner wants me to refund her the price of the puppy, to .help with charges.

But will it end there?

Consumer Protection says owner is entitled to Refund, Repair or Replace,which I am prepared to do,but I should be able to claim the dog back.

What do people think, I would appreciate import

Unfortunately for breeders, the consumer laws in W.A. are very much to the advantage of the owner of the dog. The right of choice for repair, refund or replace sits entirely with the purchaser of the dog and the breeder can only hope that the person concerned is reasonable and fair-minded. The owner of the dog can choose which vet the dog sees and whether or not a second opinion is sought. If the owner is offered a refund with the requirement that the dog is returned to the breeder, they have the right to refuse the offer and then they usually go for the repair option which is often far more expensive than a refund of purchase price.

Is this recent ? Consumer law is Australian consumer law now and all shoppers in Australia have the same rights with all sellers having the same responsibility.

Based on this no one could ever afford to breed dogs - if people can just decide they want to have the dog repaired at enormous cost and the breeder has no choice but to get the bill! No wonder breeders sell puppies to pet shops!

[Steve]

Hard to see how some one can buy a washing machine - refuse a refund because they want to keep it , clock up repair bills 5 times what the machine costs with their mate who owns a repair shop and get to claim the bill and keep the machine - rather unreasonable to me.

[espinay2]

This is a good guide to current Australian consumer law: http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/the_acl/downloads/consumer_guarantees_guide.pdf