Dogs Sales And The Law

[alpha bet]

Very interesting discussion - also very confusing....

Just goes to show - I believe that Dogs Victoria - is not doing enough to deal with some of the issues raised.

For a start if the Pedigree showed results of any certified health results - Hip/Elbow, DNA tests. then at least we have an official document showing the history of some of these health issues. Thus showing the "powers that be" that the breeders are making serious attempts to reduce known health risks.

Surely this bit of paper would then hold weight when it comes to mediation - Instead of having to come to court armed with wads of papers showing the health testing for various dogs, that one piece of paper has all the information officially recognised..... plus it should be that breeders should be educating their puppy buyers about the health testing and the lengths they have gone......

Breeders should NOT be offering guarantees to any puppy purchaser (neither main nor limited) just that they have done the best possible (at the time) to greatly REDUCE THE RISK of hereditary problems.

[Steve]

And to add now to the legal issue, when I took my boy to the vet he immediately said that he had very closed nostrils to the point that he wouldn't be surprised that he had other symptoms of BOAS. This was from just viewing him alone. He kept him for the day and did further checks under a light anaesthetic and said he did have symptoms of the condition. The specialist he referred me to is a breeder of pugs himself, has done studies on BOAS and said he wouldn't wait as his breathing is so compromised he could have further complication very early on in life.

When the operation was done he said that even the saccules had to be removed as they had already inverted. So one questions how do two vets identify this condition quickly, yet the vet who check the pups gave them a clean bill of health. I don't see how this condition can deteriorate over a couple of months so quickly. The hemivertebrae I understand doesn't show up when the dog is young and develops as they grow but it is still an inherited condition.

I am more disappointed in the response from the breeder and the controlling body. As you say they speak that they are superior breeders and imply that going to them you are going to get healthy pups. I am not silly and don't expect a dog that never gets sick in its life or gets cancer, this happens. But I would hope that they are breeding from healthy stock to eliminate the chances of getting conditions such as the ones above. Yet the breeder has ignored me other than the first email to say she was sorry to hear the news and that all her bostons snore and make noise it is part of the breed (which implied that I was over reacting, despite the advice of both specialist and vet) and has not responded to any further emails. The controlling body basically said don't care civil matter. Surely if you put it out there that your breeders are responsible, bound to a code of conduct and are doing their best to breed healthy dogs you would react. But instead allow her to do a repeat mating and register the pups! If, as a buyer, I have no better chance of getting a healthy pup from a registered breeder, or some protection if something goes wrong, than I would out from someone selling unregistered pups in the trading post for half the cost, why (thinking logically) would I pay the extra money. I know things go wrong, I understand that sometimes things can miss a generation, but as a breeder I suppose I just expected them to care a little more.

This is really what it comes down to and I couldn't tell you how often I hear of cases which have developed into a horrible experience caused by the hightened emotional component when your beautiful baby is suffering and a feeling that the breeder didn't care enough.If she cared surely she would have responded with more compassion and made you feel that she was suffering because of this too, surely if she were sorry she would not breed this combination of dogs to prevent it happening again and surely she would not imply that you were over reacting when you are trying like mad to stay calm and deal with what you have been dealt. BUT breeders are not always very good at dealing with such things and it may not be as it seems. Not knowing all of the variables and the incidence the breeder has seen of problems in her lines perhaps her making a decision to breed them again is, for her justifiable. If communication with you has stopped perhaps she doesn't know the full extent of the situation etc. as it is now. I understand its not just about the money so you need to ask is it worth it to keep pushing for compensation or do you feel its better to let it go.If you feel you want to continue to seek compensation you need legal advice and fair trading is the best place to start to proceed with action.

I hope the worst of it is over for you and your dog and that he improves and lives a long life without more suffering.

[Steve]

Very interesting discussion - also very confusing....

Just goes to show - I believe that Dogs Victoria - is not doing enough to deal with some of the issues raised.

For a start if the Pedigree showed results of any certified health results - Hip/Elbow, DNA tests. then at least we have an official document showing the history of some of these health issues. Thus showing the "powers that be" that the breeders are making serious attempts to reduce known health risks.

Surely this bit of paper would then hold weight when it comes to mediation - Instead of having to come to court armed with wads of papers showing the health testing for various dogs, that one piece of paper has all the information officially recognised..... plus it should be that breeders should be educating their puppy buyers about the health testing and the lengths they have gone......

Breeders should NOT be offering guarantees to any puppy purchaser (neither main nor limited) just that they have done the best possible (at the time) to greatly REDUCE THE RISK of hereditary problems.

In part I agree but adding hip and elbow and DNA tests to a pedigree isnt going to help this type of thing you need to be able to add health problems, temperament problems etc ,you need to be able to gather the info because its unlikely that breeders will volunteer this type of thing and you need breeders who are prepared to do something about it , including sharing the info and change their priorities in their breeding programs.

Victoria has an increase in memberships but those joining don't even need to own or breed a purebred dog - if they have a membership it allows them to breed any of their dogs whether they are purebred or not with the same exemptions all Vic dogs members get because they are members. Very few breeds have mandatory testing and Id like to see the stats which show MOST registered breeders test their parent stock and that's not even getting near what they should be testing for and selecting for even if it means not getting a ribbon.

[Steve]

Elliots mum if you contact the MDBA they will tell how to go about having the health issues of your dog recorded on our system - this will enable all of our breeders to access this information for them to be aware of it being in those lines when they are considering selecting dogs to breed with.

[Poodle wrangler]

I had a standard poodle pup (20+kg) who developed same issue at 10 months.

I'm a puppy buyer, not breeder.

Not sure where you stand legally, but how can you work out what is due to environment vs breeding?

I KNOW I didn't over-exercise my pup, kept him lean.

No leaping up-down stairs, off lounges etc., but how can you know as a breeder?

Xray'ed both patellas and hips. Told hips OK.

Both sides were affected, but one much worse than other.

Vet expected to see a 3kg toy poodle :)

Surgery cost around $1500, not including initial Xrays and pain relief.

Probably more like $2000, all inclusive, 5 years ago. Canberra.

I didn't ask for $ from breeder, as it was an unusual thing for breed.

Xrays confirmed that it was a structural issue, but that's not to say he was born with "dodgy knees" (though that was likely in vet's opinion).

[tdierikx]

Some vets can be a bit quick to advise that an issue is "genetic". In a large number of cases, there will possibly a genetic component, but there will also be environmental factors at play to bring out the "fault". I've yet to meet a vet that will tell a distraught owner of a purebred dog that they may have inadvertently played a part in "causing" the problem... much easier to lay the blame squarely on the breeder for breeding with "inferior stock", isn't it?

Some problems that dogs develop (or even breed specific issues), there are no tests for - so how does one guarantee those issues will never develop? Seriously, as others have said, some issues just happen through no major "fault" of either breeder or owner.

T.

[Steve]

Some vets can be a bit quick to advise that an issue is "genetic". In a large number of cases, there will possibly a genetic component, but there will also be environmental factors at play to bring out the "fault". I've yet to meet a vet that will tell a distraught owner of a purebred dog that they may have inadvertently played a part in "causing" the problem... much easier to lay the blame squarely on the breeder for breeding with "inferior stock", isn't it?

Some problems that dogs develop (or even breed specific issues), there are no tests for - so how does one guarantee those issues will never develop? Seriously, as others have said, some issues just happen through no major "fault" of either breeder or owner.

T.

Definitely true but BOAS is a selection issue.

[Poodle wrangler]

Some vets can be a bit quick to advise that an issue is "genetic". In a large number of cases, there will possibly a genetic component, but there will also be environmental factors at play to bring out the "fault". I've yet to meet a vet that will tell a distraught owner of a purebred dog that they may have inadvertently played a part in "causing" the problem... much easier to lay the blame squarely on the breeder for breeding with "inferior stock", isn't it?

.........................................................

Absolutely agree- "Multifactorial".

In my case, it offended me that breeder was initially quite defensive and suggested it might have been my fault.

I'd built gates so pup avoided stairs and followed large breed precautions for puppies.

Also prefaced our talk by saying, "I though I should let you know for future breeding....." i.e. not asking for $/ replacement/ refund etc.

Sorry, but luxating patellas are not "something he might grow out of" and highly unlikely to be "due to injury" if bilateral.

From my perspective things I'd rather have heard from breeder ..

"I'm really pleased you let me know...........I'm really sorry.. this isn't something we'd expect to happen..... ..Isn't something I can test for before pups leave for their homes... please let me know how he goes."

[Safffy]

Some problems that dogs develop (or even breed specific issues), there are no tests for - so how does one guarantee those issues will never develop? Seriously, as others have said, some issues just happen through no major "fault" of either breeder or owner.

Spot on mate, it states in the ANKC's rules that a breeder has to refund all or most of the money and take the dog back if a health issue arises in 12 months. You can even face litigation if you don't comply. Yet instead of having mandatory health testing on all reg'd breeders they basically say, 'You should do health tests, but we will register if you don't anyway.' Adding, in fine print, 'If you sell bad dogs they can sue you and take your car or house.'

Edited January 14, 2014 by saithroth

[~Anne~]

With BAOS there is never any guarantee that the off spring won't be affected because the breeds are selectively bred to produce brachy features.

You can try to avoid BAOS but you cannot guarantee or breed away from it totally..... unless you breed to elongate the features, and the size of the skull.

[JulesP]

I have a dog with a congenital problem (as most here know). It has cost me a lot of money, a lot of heart ache and has changed the way I live.

I don't think this was the breeders fault at all. It is a pretty rare thing and certainly rare in my breed.

What I did take issue with was the lack of care factor. And look maybe they were upset too and didn't know how to respond appropriately. I guess being a breeder doesn't mean you can automatically deal in a sensitive manner with a distraught puppy buyer. After telling them what was going on with the dog I had zero reply.

I had a buyer/breeder relationship with this person for quite a number of years though and do feel quite 'burnt' by the whole thing.

[tdierikx]

Obviously BOAS isn't something tested for, or can be ruled out completely from occurring in a breed where the standard is for a certain shape of face/head, yes?

The fact that parents and other offspring are fine doesn't necessarily indicate that ALL offspring will be fine and danady. Tough one to pass judgement on from this side of the fence... *sigh*

T.

[~Anne~]

I aggre too with whomever said that young dogs don't often show too many symptoms. I personally know from my experiences that I can only pick most BOAS symptoms once a dog hits maturity.

Stenotic nares (the pinched nostrils) is a huge issue with pugs particularly. I've pointed this out repeatedly in discussions on this forum over the years and been battered about because of it. I even went as far as posting pics of only the nostrils of some very well awarded pugs to prove how easy it is to see and to ignore.

I've never ever met a pug without stenotic nares. Never ever!

If you buy a brachy breed you must accept that even the best of breeders out there breeding theses dogs cannot stop BOAS as I stated in my post above. More of a concern is the hemi in my view and the unexplained problems with infections.

I know the decision may be hard but it seems to me that this pup would be better off being treated palliatively only.

[tdierikx]

I aggre too with whomever said that young dogs don't often show too many symptoms. I personally know from my experiences that I can only pick most BOAS symptoms once a dog hits maturity.

Stenotic nares (the pinched nostrils) is a huge issue with pugs particularly. I've pointed this out repeatedly in discussions on this forum over the years and been battered about because of it. I even went as far as posting pics of only the nostrils of some very well awarded pugs to prove how easy it is to see and to ignore.

I've never ever met a pug without stenotic nares. Never ever!

If you buy a brachy breed you must accept that even the best of breeders out there breeding theses dogs cannot stop BOAS as I stated in my post above. More of a concern is the hemi in my view and the unexplained problems with infections.

I know the decision may be hard but it seems to me that this pup would be better off being treated palliatively only.

As much as it may hurt his owner to make a decision like that for a very young dog, I tend to agree...

T.

[Elliot's mum]

Funnily enough I was prepared to just deal with the BAOS I knew it was a risk in the breed, but it appears the problems just don't stop there. He has lower oesophageal sphincter dysfunction, a small liver and his blood tests reflect slightly low urea and albumin. (These are taken straight from his specialist notes, plus this has not been one blood test but many) Unfortunately none of these have a definite diagnosis due to his bradycardia. They have basically said they don't want to risk any more tests. Having said that he does go in tomorrow for more X-rays on his back to determine how much the hemivetebrae has deteriorated and to decide his best options. They are going to attempt them with only slightest sedative.

So when does an owner keep saying it is acceptable for a breed to be this bad and suck it up? I haven't asked for money to treat him medically or for future medical costs, it is my decision to keep treating him and do what I can for him, I could put him to sleep but I love him and feel he is worth it. So if I do just treat him pallatively and spend $13500 on a dog, do I just have to say well my bad for buying that breed, chalk it up to experience. I am not saying the breeder was negligent in this, I do feel knowing even one puppy had these symptoms that it is wrong to repeat the mating. But since when did the breeder become the victim here? Even if I did get my purchase price back I am not winning, I am still losing in this.

Now the really crazy thing is if the breeder had said that she feels so bad and had offered me another puppy from another litter for free, (which I wouldn't have taken) I would have just left it there. But this person has shown no care at all from what she has produced, from her choice in breeding and has washed her hands of the problem. It is not acceptable. I know of a person that their border collie developed epilepsy. That breeder offered them a free puppy next litter. Those people have since bought two more of her. No bad blood, they never once claimed for medical costs and I know it cost them thousands. Just think about the damage you can do by not standing by your breeding. If you went and spent thousands on a car and it was a complete mess and the manufacturer said oh yeah but our vehicles are known for that problem so you know what we do our best but hey, not interested, would you put up with that. I don't think many people would.

[~Anne~]

I don't want to turn this into a euthanasia thread but determining his life and the quality of life is not a 'he's worth it' issue. ALL dogs are worthy of a life but it isn't always the best thing for them.

A car is not a living breathing thing. You cannot compare a dog that is made of living cells to a car.

I can understand your anger, your grief and the stress at the situation you have found yourself in but sometimes there is no fault to lay. If you gave birth to a child with severe congenital issues and you didn't set out to achieve that, would you also be so harsh on yourself? Some conditions cannot be screened for. Some conditions cannot be prevented.

Of course there very well may be a slack ass breeder in this situation who has done the wrong thing. In which case, they should offer you compensation. They've offered you compensation with another pet even though they believe they did all they could to ensure healthy pups. They at least are trying to negotiate some kind of offering which is better than being told to piss off.

It's always hard with pets because you become attached though and that feels like a slap in the face. You love the one you have. It is hard to look at the situation objectively because you are so close to it.

Your pups issues may be a twist of nature. Only you, the breeder and maybe a judge can work that one out to a conclusion however.

[Elliot's mum]

Of course there very well may be a slack ass breeder in this situation who has done the wrong thing. In which case, they should offer you compensation. They've offered you compensation with another pet even though they believe they did all they could to ensure healthy pups. They at least are trying to negotiate some kind of offering which is better than being told to

No they have offered me nothing. I said IF they had offered. All I got was a response to imply I was over reacting to his problems and no further contact since. She has not responded to any further emails and has not checked once to see if he has even survived the operation. And of course you can compare it to a car, it isn't a living breathing creature but we still have expectations for our money and would not like to be told to suck it up. Yes I am emotionally attached to this, I have lived in stress and tears for the past 7 months trying to help my dog live a normal healthy life. But thanks for everyone's input. I must say I joined this site to find some help but all it has done is scare me off from breeders a bit. I never thought anyone would think it was acceptable to charge someone $3500 for a puppy that turns out to be a medical nightmare and consider it the puppy owners responsibility.

Anyhow I can see my best avenue is to go through consumer rights as from the response I got from them they seem to think it is unfair that I bought such a sick puppy. Go figure. Thanks everyone for your input.

[Steve]

Some problems that dogs develop (or even breed specific issues), there are no tests for - so how does one guarantee those issues will never develop? Seriously, as others have said, some issues just happen through no major "fault" of either breeder or owner.

Spot on mate, it states in the ANKC's rules that a breeder has to refund all or most of the money and take the dog back if a health issue arises in 12 months. You can even face litigation if you don't comply. Yet instead of having mandatory health testing on all reg'd breeders they basically say, 'You should do health tests, but we will register if you don't anyway.' Adding, in fine print, 'If you sell bad dogs they can sue you and take your car or house.'

Where are you getting this info from - could you provide a link or reference please?

[~Anne~]

My apologies, I read your post wrongly and thought they had offered you another pup.

The rest of your post is an over reaction in my view. Possibly warranted given the stressful situation you have found yourself in, however, no one is saying you are responsible. Most have looked at it from a detached and objective view point.

When you seek views on a public forum you should stress that you only want views you agree with if it upsets you to see a range of views, some opposing.

Many who are responding in this thread are not breeders. I am not a breeder. We all have differing views and we all are looking at the situation from different perspectives. I think you should remain being a member here. You may not always like the responses to your posts but you will most certainly get very broad range and many, many very credible responses from knowledgable people.

Edited January 14, 2014 by ~Anne~

[minimax]

You've only contacted the breeder via email? Why would you not pick up the phone and just call them, especially if they didn't reply to your email