Dogs Sales And The Law

[ozziemom]

I have a problem with a owner of one of my pups,which has developed slipping patella problems at ten month, I referred

to my Vet but owner went elsewhere, she has had the dog operated on,vet fees 5000.00.( my vet quoted 1700.00.

Owner wants me to refund her the price of the puppy, to .help with charges.

But will it end there?

Consumer Protection says owner is entitled to Refund, Repair or Replace,which I am prepared to do,but I should be able to claim the dog back.

What do people think, I would appreciate import

[~Anne~]

How much would it be to refund the price of the puppy?

If you have already received advice and that advice is to refund then It would seem you have an obligation to do so.

If it were me, I'd just refund the purchase price, add some to cover the cost of surgery (maybe the $1700 your vet would have charged), and save myself a lot of argument and stress.

Why cause a problem for yourself by wanting the dog back? The new owners would be very attached to him by now. They've watched him go through surgery and have probably had him for some time. They're not going to give him up. That seems obvious to me. It's a living, loving thing you're talking about here, not a pair of shoes. Of course they want to keep him.

[Christina]

I would also refund the cost of the puppy. Its a fair thing to do.

They love their dog so I would leave it at that.

Get/give a receipt.

If it doesn't end there then look at dealing with it but for now a refund is the way to go.

[WreckitWhippet]

Refund them the purchase price, take the dog back and treat it in the way you see fit as the breeder. There's is no way that someone who ignored my wishes to use my own vet would be refunded and get to keep the dog.

[Christina]

Refund them the purchase price, take the dog back and treat it in the way you see fit as the breeder. There's is no way that someone who ignored my wishes to use my own vet would be refunded and get to keep the dog.

They love their dog obviously & had treatment for the problem.

They spent $5000 & have not asked for it back, only the cost of the dog.

So why take back a dog that was cared for & had the medical help (successfully) it needed because they didn't go to the vet you wanted ?

The vet they went to must have been qualified & as the dog is theirs now it is their choice ultimately. They haven't even asked for the vet fees to be refunded only a perfectly reasonable request for purchase price.

Which I would be pleased to refund & would be grateful the dog had a good & caring home.

[~Anne~]

I don't think they can legally take the dog back anyway, can they?

Why cause them, and yourself, more grief.

Consumers want more these days. Breeders are going to have to step up.

[Steve]

1.Puppy buyers cant just go off and contract a vet to do work on their dog and expect the breeder to pay for it without prior approval from the breeder that they will pay this bill.

2.As a breeder you are expected to request a written report from their vet and a second opinion and you should be saying in your contract who you will accept a second opinion from and who will want the repairer to be.

3.If after the second opinion you decide in conjunction with your vet advice that this is in fact something you should take responsibility for then you have a right to offer a refund or replacement or pay for the repairs - but its your choice based on what you can afford.

4. The dog was sold in good condition with no health issues at the time of sale.

You are certainly not expected to cover vet bills over the purchase price - especially those for which you haven't given prior approval.

5. Much - very much depends on what you sales contract says.

Its astounds me that there is a view in the welfare and dog world that breeders should not breed dogs to make money yet there is an expectation that if something goes wrong which the breeder has no control over that they should miraculously have some magical bankroll somewhere which will pay for the demands of puppy buyers for months or years into the future.

Pet shops have a max 14 day guarantee and a whole list of things the puppy buyer has to do in order to receive a refund and breeders have been conned into giving guarantees that go way further than the fact that pup is well and suitable for the purpose for which it was intended at time of sale - yes a breeder can guarantee that a pup wont get something like PRA which they can test for because there is a test and its recessive and therefore know the pup wont be affected but things like patellas and hips - most things should never be guaranteed and the puppy buyer regardless of where they buy the pup from should know this before they buy them. Yes we can eliminate and reduce the risk factors but we cannot and should not be guaranteeing that we will or can do things which are impossible to do.

Before the pup leaves your property the buyer has to know and have it written so they can look it up for future reference what they can and cannot expect so that in a years time they don't expect it and the breeder and the buyer have to do this dance. Before you breed a puppy you have to be clear and be able to explain to a puppy buyer what you will guarantee , what that means and what the conditions are.

You are not legally obligated [unless you have some poor wording in your contract you have with your puppy buyer to refund without return of the animal - remember this is about them saying that the product [ pup] was not suitable for the purpose for which it was purchased and if they keep it then it is still being used for that purpose - a pet. Morally ethically,protecting your reputation etc - thats different . Ask yourself - if they had used your vet would you have paid the money - all of the money to have it repaired if it was over the purchase price, would you have refunded the money to put toward the operation without asking for return of the dog and are you sure and your vet sure that it was something you did which you could have prevented.

[Steph M]

Refund them the purchase price, take the dog back and treat it in the way you see fit as the breeder. There's is no way that someone who ignored my wishes to use my own vet would be refunded and get to keep the dog.

So you lose the right to use your own trusted vet if a problem arises when you buy a dog from you as a breeder?

Seems slightly unfair to me and I hope that's made known at time of purchase... It would certainly impact my decision.

[Staffyluv]

Not a breeder so can't comment on what to do sorry..

However, who in their right mind would pay $5000 for something that another vet would do for $1700??

Hope you get it sorted so every one is happy.

[brintey]

Are slipping patellas something which can be tested for? And if so, were the parents tested prior to mating? Or is it something which has a major environmental component like hip displaysia?

[Steve]

I don't think they can legally take the dog back anyway, can they?

Why cause them, and yourself, more grief.

Consumers want more these days. Breeders are going to have to step up.

Yep they can if the purchaser wants a refund.

So we all assume that because the dog has a patella problem at 10 months this is the result of something the breeder should be held responsible for in the first place? Patella problems don't just happen for a genetic issue.

Consumers do want more but that doesnt mean that they get to buy an animal and clock up massive bills and expect the breeder will pay or refund etc when it isnt their responsibility. They do get more and expect that the breeder has done what they can to lower risks but its not possible for the risks to be completely eliminated and they should know this before they buy.

As a breeder what am I to do use only money I get from other sources to breed dogs and put any money that comes in - not to cover my expenses but to invest somewhere in case someone wants their money back indefinitely into the future in case its something that was bred in? doesnt seem very fair to me.

[julesluvscavs]

My understanding (with owning a breed that is prone to it) it can be genetic, but it can also be environmental in some cases as well.. Ive never personally experienced it with any of mine yet *touch wood*Im not an expert on them tho..(patellas)

Edited October 21, 2013 by Jules❤3Cavs

[Steve]

Refund them the purchase price, take the dog back and treat it in the way you see fit as the breeder. There's is no way that someone who ignored my wishes to use my own vet would be refunded and get to keep the dog.

So you lose the right to use your own trusted vet if a problem arises when you buy a dog from you as a breeder?

Seems slightly unfair to me and I hope that's made known at time of purchase... It would certainly impact my decision.

You cant expect to have a right to have the breeder pay when they have no say over who does the work and certainly before they give approval for you to go ahead and clock up the bill that they will pay for . You don't loose your right to use your own vet but if the breeder says they wont pay for your vet and you continue to use them you cant come back and hand them the bill either.

[Steve]

Are slipping patellas something which can be tested for? And if so, were the parents tested prior to mating? Or is it something which has a major environmental component like hip displaysia?

Same as HD - some caused by congenital deformity which probably is genetic others poly genic can be caused by jumping off beds, an injury, diet weight etc.

[Steph M]

Refund them the purchase price, take the dog back and treat it in the way you see fit as the breeder. There's is no way that someone who ignored my wishes to use my own vet would be refunded and get to keep the dog.

So you lose the right to use your own trusted vet if a problem arises when you buy a dog from you as a breeder?

Seems slightly unfair to me and I hope that's made known at time of purchase... It would certainly impact my decision.

You cant expect to have a right to have the breeder pay when they have no say over who does the work and certainly before they give approval for you to go ahead and clock up the bill that they will pay for . You don't loose your right to use your own vet but if the breeder says they wont pay for your vet and you continue to use them you cant come back and hand them the bill either.

Sorry I should have been clearer! I wouldn't expect them to pay the extra, if I wanted to use my more expensive vet then so be it. My choice. I took the comment to say if the owner decided to use another vet in this instance they had no claim to keep the dog.

[Steve]

Refund them the purchase price, take the dog back and treat it in the way you see fit as the breeder. There's is no way that someone who ignored my wishes to use my own vet would be refunded and get to keep the dog.

So you lose the right to use your own trusted vet if a problem arises when you buy a dog from you as a breeder?

Seems slightly unfair to me and I hope that's made known at time of purchase... It would certainly impact my decision.

You cant expect to have a right to have the breeder pay when they have no say over who does the work and certainly before they give approval for you to go ahead and clock up the bill that they will pay for . You don't loose your right to use your own vet but if the breeder says they wont pay for your vet and you continue to use them you cant come back and hand them the bill either.

Sorry I should have been clearer! I wouldn't expect them to pay the extra, if I wanted to use my more expensive vet then so be it. My choice. I took the comment to say if the owner decided to use another vet in this instance they had no claim to keep the dog.

No - and Im speaking legally not ethically for a minute. If an owner wants a refund then there is a requirement that if they get the refund they must return the dog if that is what the breeder demands. Personally ethically if I as a breeder felt that I should pay the refund because I accepted it as my responsibility then I would pay it and not require the dog to be returned. the only time a breeder can demand return of the dog is prior to payment of a refund

As horrible as many see it dogs are property and when you buy a dog its the same as when you buy a washing machine.

The washing machine manufacturer cant afford to have people ducking off to their own repairers without talking to them first to see if they will pay costs and if they give you a refund they keep the product.

Do the sums. Approx 25 % of Golden Retrievers statistically get HD no matter what the breeders do to try to eliminate it .So if a breeder breeds 20 puppies a year for 5 years - odds are around 25 of them will develop HD. If all of those puppy buyers come back after they have been to their own vet and hit the breeder with their bills of $5000 each and expect them to pay when they havent said they would thats around 125000 dollars which is less than the breeder received when they sold all of their 100 puppies in the first place.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Steve

[Brandiandwe]

I'm obviously just naive. I assume that having taken on an animal and made them family, that I am responsible for them and all of their health care from then on. Assuming that I have got an animal from an ethical and good breeder and got an animal fit for purpose (as a pet, hot water bottle and general fur distributer), then I cannot imagine asking the breeder for help unless it was something they knew about beforehand OR had found out after I had the said puppy. I think it very sad that people think in any other way.

[keasarge]

They bought a healthy puppy at 8 weeks now 8 months later isn't healthy. I dont suppose there is a way to tell if the patellas where a result of genetic bad luck or injury caused by there household is there ? How long does the health Gaurentee from the breeder last ? If the dog develops cancer in five years is the breeder ment to pay ?

[Steve]

Another point here - hobby breeders are not able to insure themselves against this - but the buyer is.

If breeders explain that they can only guarantee that the pup is healthy and fit for the purpose for which it is sold and that if the buyer requires insurance that if something like this happens they will be covered for expenses that they should take out insurance and then choice is on the buyer to pay for that insurance - or perhaps breeders should double the sale price of their puppies and invest half to cover such things if the buyer wants these type of guarantees.

Some of our MDBA breeders pay for 12 months insurance in advance on all of their pups and include the cost into the purchase price of the pup.

[Steve]

They bought a healthy puppy at 8 weeks now 8 months later isn't healthy. I dont suppose there is a way to tell if the patellas where a result of genetic bad luck or injury caused by there household is there ? How long does the health Gaurentee from the breeder last ? If the dog develops cancer in five years is the breeder ment to pay ?

Here is the problem. there is so much expectation and crap said about what a "GOOD BREEDER " will or should do that unless its all spelled out in writing there is a potential for problems. Puppy buyers have an expectation which the breeder is unaware of and there isnt enough communication to clarify it all so when the crap hits the fan its on for young and old.

In the past few months Ive dealt with someone complaining about a breeder for something her 9 and a half year old dog has developed which may or may not be caused by genetics. She has had the benefit of the use of the breeder for advice and support and had quite a good relationship for 9 years - then came back and demanded a full refund.When she didnt get it she saw this as a sign the breeder didnt care and that she cared more about money than what she had bred and has told the whole world about what a mongrel the breeder is.

So each breeder needs to clarify what they will and will not guarantee and for how long and what they will do in the event something happens because some puppy buyers assume that if a breeder says I guarantee against genetic diseases that it means something altogether different to what the breeder had in mind . When the breeder says they need them to see their own vet or get a second opinion or if they determine that its too long ago or that it may have been caused because the dog is grossly over weight the puppy buyer doesn't get it because all along they had a different idea about how it would go if there was an issue.

Another one has complained because they bought a dog 18 months ago and now they dont want it any more as they are moving - breeder said she would take it back but when the buyer found out they would need to pay transport to have her do so - game on and its a fight to behold. The buyer thought the breeder would buy back the dog for the original purchase price and pay to get it home. Big fireworks there.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Steve