Addison And Now Seizure

[Sylvie]

My poor little dog (9 years old JRT) has just been diagnosed with Addison's disease a few months ago and is now on a very low dose of Florinef (the lowest I can manage, 1/2 tablets once a day). He is a lot better now, his appetite and thirst are good, and there is no more sign of arthritis. But he had a seizure just before we did the tests for Addison's about 3 months ago. He since had 2 more about a month apart and my vet told me last week that I might consider medicating him to try and stop them. She suspects it might be due to a brain tumor or some sort of damage to the brain as he has a slight paralysis of the right side of his face (does not blink) and a bit of a head tilt to the right. Phenobarbital being the medication she would like to try, but she also mentioned that there was a few side effects. I have been reading about those side effects a bit and that is quite scary.

For the last 6 months my husband has been working in Townsville and I have been there regularly (every 3rd weekend or about) and the dogs have been in a kennel while I was away. I was supposed to go back there next weekend so decided to wait until I come back to start the phenobarbital. But Ares had an other seizure last night, only a week after the previous one, so I will call my vet on Tuesday (she does not work Monday) to probably start him on the med then. I am worried about the side effects though, and the effect that would have on the other dog (litter-mate who is very confused by all this). During the seizure he just sits away, but after it is like he wants to help and lick Ares better. But he once lick a bit too hard and Ares lost his balance and start growling and I had to separate them for a while until Ares got better. If the side effects of the phenobarbital are as strong as I read, I am afraid of Apollo (the other dog) reaction to Ares loss of balance and all other weaknesses. I will try to work from home as much as I can, but I read that the side effects can last for a few weeks so I will have to leave them alone at some stage. Being litter-mate they are just tolerating each other, but take any opportunity for trying to shut the other off. And that is what's worrying me. In the 2 years we've had them, we never had full on fight, but a few quick scuffle, and they get pretty upset if they are separated and know the other one is not far.

Anybody had experience in managing other dogs around a sick dog? What are the options? And what can I do to try and lower the phenobarbital side effects ( mainly hyper excitability, loss of coordination)?

Thanks for reading and any experience or advice or anything I should prepare myself for.

Sylvie.

[kelpiecuddles]

Can you section off a little section of one room with a toddler pen or similiar and put soft blankets in there as a safe place to put Ares while he recovers from a seizure? That way the other dog can still be close to him but not close enough to upset him.

[~Anne~]

I recently lost my epileptic dog, Monte. He was on phenobarbital (Pb) for over 9 years. He was a pug and died in April this year a couple of days short of his 11th birthday.

Yes, Pb has side effects. The most common and least dangerous I would say is an increase in thirst (which increases urine output), an increase in appetite and ataxia (weakness in the hind area). These side effects are normally ongoing.

There are more dangerous side effects such as damage to the liver but this is normally seen in dogs on long term Pb or very high doses.

Pb is not a set dose type drug either. You have to trial and adjust. In the first 6 - 12 months the blood serum level of Pb should be tested several times and the dose adjusted as necessary, taking into account the level of side affects.

Dogs usually settle into a dose so the side effects such as ataxia may be quite noticeable at first but it will settle and either totally disappear, or like Monte, continue in varying degrees. It takes up to 3 months for a dose to settle.

It must be given every 12 hours. The level of Pb rapidly decreases after 12 hours and you are at increased risk of the dog having more seizures.

If your dogs have a reaction to each other during, before or immediately after the seizures you will have to keep them separated. I've read horror stories over the years about dogs killing or seriously injuring the dog with epilepsy. It is thought it is either a total misunderstanding from the healthy dog what is happening and they read the seizure and associated symptoms as attack or aggression or it's an instinctual 'killing of the weak' reaction. Thankfully I never had any aggression between my dogs, or the rescues I took in, but that I would think is breed related. The pug is very non aggressive as a breed.

I would contain him if possible. Perhaps like Kelpiecuddles suggested above.

Monte was a classic epileptic until January this year when he suffered what was thought to be a vestibular episode. He recovered but not as completely as what he should have. He had a head tilt and his balance was never great again. A few months later, over a couple of days, his head tilt greatly increased, he started circling and then went into status (seizures that continue and never stop). We couldn't bring him out of it despite repeated doses of Valium and other drugs. He was given his wings. (I still find it hard talking or writing about his last few days).

Monte saw a neurologist as well as his normal vet. After the vestibular type episode, his Neurologist advised me that he may have something more sinister happening ie a tumour on his brain. After what occurred a few months later we now believe he did. This was on top of his epilepsy it is thought. He was just an unlucky boy to have epilepsy all his life and then also end his life with a brain cancer.

Edited October 13, 2013 by ~Anne~

[Sylvie]

I am so sorry for your loss Anne. That is so sad when there is nothing more that we can do. That is something I am also starting to consider if it gets worse. I will try to make him feel better as much as we can but it is hard to see him struggle in the meantime.

Addison's medication also increase thirst and appetite so it will be a juggle to balance that out. We just went for a short walk and he is still panting and already had a few drinks in the last 20 min. Addison's also affects his capability to deal with stress, so anything out of the ordinary, any noise is a big deal. Even going for a walk might be too exciting and sometime stressful if I don't manage to avoid other dogs barking behind a fence or walking on other side of the road. I don't know if stress can have an impact on provoking a seizure, I will have to ask the vet about that.

If your dogs have a reaction to each other during, before or immediately after the seizures you will have to keep them separated. I've read horror stories over the years about dogs killing or seriously injuring the dog with epilepsy. It is thought it is either a total misunderstanding from the healthy dog what is happening and they read the seizure and associated symptoms as attack or aggression or it's an instinctual 'killing of the weak' reaction. Thankfully I never had any aggression between my dogs, or the rescues I took in, but that I would think is breed related. The pug is very non aggressive as a breed.

If I am home when he has a seizure I can keep them separated, that's not a problem. Apollo is pretty good if I tell him to go outside or stay away. He has always been the submissive one, but as you say seeing his brother weaker might trigger the 'killing of the weak' reaction. And that is my big worry. Most of the time he tries to avoid conflict but if he is pushed too much he is the one snapping. My problem will be while Ares is adapting to the phenobarbital, if I have to go out or to work, to find a way of separating them without creating too much stress. In the meantime, I'll probably try to get as much work from home as possible and take some days off and see how they go. And I will try to find a way to separate them while I am home if they need to.

Thanks you so much for your answer kelpiecuddles and Anne.

Sylvie.

[Poodle wrangler]

My mini poodle died earlier this year from suspected brain tumour.

If a brain tumour is the cause, then phenobarb may, or may not, be effective.

It only helps stop the seizures, not tumour growth, as you probably know.

I don't mean to be cruel, but it may be best to have a talk to vet about when to PTS if it's not possible to separate the dogs and if your JRT will be chronically distressed.

Does your dog still have good quality of life?

Best wishes at this hard time.

[~Anne~]

Yes, stress can impact on seizures. It depends on the dog though, which area of the brain are effected by the seizures and other variables. In my case, with Monte, he had no triggers that we can pinpoint but it did seem that the number of seizures increased in the hotter months.

[Sylvie]

If a brain tumour is the cause, then phenobarb may, or may not, be effective

It only helps stop the seizures, not tumour growth, as you probably know.

I don't mean to be cruel, but it may be best to have a talk to vet about when to PTS if it's not possible to separate the dogs and if your JRT will be chronically distressed.

Does your dog still have good quality of life?

Poodle wrangler, it certainly will be part of the discussion with my vet. The brain tumor is the worse case scenario, but in the absence of any other identified causes, that is unfortunately a possible one. They are my first dogs and we only had them for 2 years now, so I am not sure I will know when it's time. I hope I will see some signs but for now he looks still full of life, chasing every birds, lizards and flies in the garden, doing zoomies when he thinks it's time for a walk. Does he have a good quality of life? I don't know. I hope. Anyway I'll discuss all the options with the vet and see what can be done.

Thanks Anne, it's been pretty hot here these last weeks, so it might not help. His seizures always happened while he is sleeping, the last 2 were at midnight but I can't say I have noticed anything that could trigger them.

[julesluvscavs]

My mini poodle died earlier this year from suspected brain tumour.

If a brain tumour is the cause, then phenobarb may, or may not, be effective.

It only helps stop the seizures, not tumour growth, as you probably know.

I don't mean to be cruel, but it may be best to have a talk to vet about when to PTS if it's not possible to separate the dogs and if your JRT will be chronically distressed.

Does your dog still have good quality of life?

Best wishes at this hard time.

Sorry to hear that Poodle wrangler our 9 year old Cavalier had to be pts recently due to a suspected brain tumour or around that area.. He couldn't even walk in the end. Its the saddest thing to watch He was on the highest dose of cortisone in the last 48 hours to see if that might have bought him some more time, but it didn't. He didn't have full on fits as such but he would be very jerky and spasm a lot especially at night.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Jules❤3Cavs

[julesluvscavs]

Thinking of you Syvie, its a tough thing to go through with them

Joey had been a bit snappy (as in growly) at our young Cavalier and I first thought it was because she was getting in his face.. unbeknown to us he was getting ill , but we had no idea at the time.. He would often go put himself in his crate and rest there and stay away from Miah when she was in a playful mood..

When the quality of their life starts to suffer badly and you have done as much as you can, then all you can do is let them go.. Hopefully you not near that point yet x

Edited October 14, 2013 by Jules❤3Cavs

[julesluvscavs]

Anne, my heart goes out to you also. Its been a tough painful year for some of us x

Edited October 14, 2013 by Jules❤3Cavs

[Sylvie]

Thinking of you Syvie, its a tough thing to go through with them

Joey had been a bit snappy (as in growly) at our young Cavalier and I first thought it was because she was getting in his face.. unbeknown to us he was getting ill , but we had no idea at the time.. He would often go put himself in his crate and rest there and stay away from Miah when she was in a playful mood..

When the quality of their life starts to suffer badly and you have done as much as you can, then all you can do is let them go.. Hopefully you not near that point yet x

Thanks Jules❤3Cavs and sorry for your loss. Managing the interaction between the two while Ares is not 100% will probably be the biggest challenge to start with.

[julesluvscavs]

It will be Sylvie.. thinking of you all x

[~Anne~]

Thanks Jules. Agree, many of us are feeling recent losses of very special dogs.

Sylvie, The greater majority of monte's also occurred at night after he had gone to sleep. Monte had clusters of seizures instead of single ones and suffered more than 300 over his life. He too was always a happy little dog though who loved life.

When it comes to 'knowing its time' I am not sure we all do. I had to make that heart wrenching decision with Monte and to this day, my mind still plays havoc with thoughts of 'what if we have him this or did this, we might have turned him round'. When I'm feeling logical I know it was time... in fact, I sometimes think the decision possibly should have been made a few hours earlier. I guess what I am saying is I don't think we do really know. Be guided by your vets and your heart.

[cowanbree]

Please do separate when you are not able to supervise. When things happen they don't behave like the beloved pets you know and love and far better to take sensible precautions than have to live with the regrets. Twice now I have had horrible incidents, once many years ago with a dog seizuring where I was actually in the room and 3 normally totally non aggressive dogs managed to put 200 stiches in her and more recently where my dear old 15 year old cat was getting a bit wobbly and the 13yr old dog she had lived with all her life attacked her when she become tangled up in the telephone cord and panicked.

We tend to humanise our pets but when things like this happen they act like the animals they are.

[Sylvie]

Please do separate when you are not able to supervise. When things happen they don't behave like the beloved pets you know and love and far better to take sensible precautions than have to live with the regrets. Twice now I have had horrible incidents, once many years ago with a dog seizuring where I was actually in the room and 3 normally totally non aggressive dogs managed to put 200 stiches in her and more recently where my dear old 15 year old cat was getting a bit wobbly and the 13yr old dog she had lived with all her life attacked her when she become tangled up in the telephone cord and panicked.

We tend to humanise our pets but when things like this happen they act like the animals they are.

Oh no, cowanbree that's horrible and exactly what I am afraid of. I will definitely find a way to separate them when unsupervised. Thanks

[Sylvie]

Ares has been on Phenobarbital for 2 days now. I did not notice too much of an increase in appetite or thirst, but the ataxia is pretty impressive. And he is grumpier than ever. I have been working from home the last 2 days and I am having a day off today to keep an eye on them. They did start a couple of fights yesterday when Ares wobbled around Apollo and started growling at him. The poor things, they look very confused. Apollo is a very good boy, he stays son his bed most of the time, and tries to ignore Ares as much as he can. But Ares has always been a pushy grumpy boy. I try to distract them as soon as they start staring at each other which works most of the time. Then we go for a walk when they become a bit agitated. I also get their kennels out of the shed, so I can put them in it and close the door to get some rest (that's their crate). They seem to like it and settled in it for a while.

I hope Ares is going to get better soon because it is very hard to see them so tensed and confused. I cannot imagine them (and me) living like that for too long. The good news is my husband is coming back from Townsville for good on Sunday (he just resigned to come home), so he will be home to help and supervise them for the next few weeks.

I know it's only early days, so we will wait and see how it goes in the next few weeks.

[~Anne~]

It must be so hard for you watching him go through this.

[Sylvie]

It must be so hard for you watching him go through this.

Thanks, Anne, I know you know how it is. Ares is now sleeping like a baby at my feet while Apollo is sleeping on his bed. I just don't want to move and risk disturbing the peace!

[~Anne~]

The ataxia will normally settle. Being a pug, Monte's ataxia was more clearly shown in his tail. Normally curled on a pugs back, his was always hanging in a half curl down his bum. Monte never really suffered from aggravation. He was incredibly restless though his whole life due to the Pb and paced a lot.

[Sylvie]

The ataxia will normally settle. Being a pug, Monte's ataxia was more clearly shown in his tail. Normally curled on a pugs back, his was always hanging in a half curl down his bum. Monte never really suffered from aggravation. He was incredibly restless though his whole life due to the Pb and paced a lot.

Ares is hardly able to walk just after standing up and he stumble regularly for the next few minutes. This morning he tried to jump on chair and did not managed to get up to it. He then went for a lap or 2 of the room, gave a nasty look at that chair and try an other one successfully. He stayed snoozing on it for a good while. Poor little thing.

And now we are having a loud storm, that's going to help to settle them down!