Back Chaining A Retrieve

[teekay]

So I have decided to put a concerted effort into training Luka to retrieve a ball. Back chaining seems to be the way to go but we seem to have encountered a problem pretty much straight away.

He is pretty savvy to my marker word 'yes' but although we have progressed to a good nose touch, he will not open his mouth. It's a fine line between rewarding him for the strong nose touches but holding off in the hope he will try that bit harder and open his mouth.

Any suggestions? I've tried bouncing the ball but he just looks at it and pushes it with his nose when it stops. You can tell he is starting to get frustrated and is offering all sorts of other 'tricks'. Poor boy, he's trying so hard but just doesn't get it. It is at this point I have given up before but I really want to get this right this time

[The Spotted Devil]

A couple of ideas....

Try some "free shaping" with a box and only reward new behaviours once or twice.

Train with his dinner every night.

When you return to the retrieve switch to something other than the ball - save you "poisoning" the retrieve with the item. Generalise quite quickly to a number of objects including wood, leather...even a pen.

Only reward a repeated behaviour once or twice - then expect a new behaviour. Let him work through the frustration but don't make a big deal about it. Relax with a cuppa or a glass of wine whilst you train - sit in a chair.

My Dally used to get awfully frustrated with shaping so I tried something different: one piece of kibble for every repeated behaviour and a handful if he tried something new. It really helped him push through the "giving up" stage.

If you are desperate you can try putting some food on the retrieve item just to get him started.

I shaped Em to bring me a tissue the other night - advanced it too quickly and she brought me the whole box! When that didn't work she tried to do perch work on it :laugh: Fortunately I videoed it.

[BC Crazy]

Can I ask a silly question, what do you mean by back chaining?

[The Spotted Devil]

Can I ask a silly question, what do you mean by back chaining?

Not a silly question :)

It means that you teach the last behaviour first and is a powerful way to learn. For example, you teach the delivery aspect of the retrieve first. In agility we teach the 2 on/2 off contact behaviour first - that is the last behaviour performed on the dog walk, A-frame etc.

[teekay]

Thanks spotted devil, good idea to try something different to the ball. I will give that a try, he's not all that fussed about small balls in the first place so that might be hindering him.

:D at Em trying to get the right thing. Sounds a lot like Luka. "Is this what you want Mum? Or this? I can do this. :)

Edited October 5, 2013 by teekay

[hankdog]

I've been trying for ages. I can get a run out pick up and make a toy squeak or mouth and take a toy out my hand, sometimes he'll take a step toward me with it. Have you tried a very furry toy, this can bring out some prey drive and sort of got Jake to mouth on a toy. My trainer said some dogs are just not very interested in the retrieve thing.

[Kavik]

I have shaped a retrieve two different ways.

The first one I tried was Shirley Chong's retrieve

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/retrieve.html

That worked reasonably well with Diesel to a point, struggled to get speed or enthusiasm for going out to it, but he will hold it well and walk around and bring it back and sit in front etc. With Kaos I got stuck when using this method, so I decided to try a different approach.

The second one I tried just recently with my pup and Kaos is using a hand touch similar to kikopup's video

Here is the video of my retrieve with my puppy at the moment

[BC Crazy]

Can I ask a silly question, what do you mean by back chaining?

Not a silly question :)

It means that you teach the last behaviour first and is a powerful way to learn. For example, you teach the delivery aspect of the retrieve first. In agility we teach the 2 on/2 off contact behaviour first - that is the last behaviour performed on the dog walk, A-frame etc.

Oh thanks TSD :) I hadn't heard of this method before. Gives me another option to research & try.

[The Spotted Devil]

Can I ask a silly question, what do you mean by back chaining?

Not a silly question :)

It means that you teach the last behaviour first and is a powerful way to learn. For example, you teach the delivery aspect of the retrieve first. In agility we teach the 2 on/2 off contact behaviour first - that is the last behaviour performed on the dog walk, A-frame etc.

Oh thanks TSD :) I hadn't heard of this method before. Gives me another option to research & try.

BC Crazy, I just posted a video in the "What trick are you teaching?" thread where I'm using backchaining to teach Em to fetch me a tissue :)

[BC Crazy]

Great I will watch it :)