Do You Have An Alpha?

[Beckybecbec]

Arvo :)

We have two pups... 6wks apart. We love them loads and are generally not an issue.

However our mini schnauzer is very dominant over his little SBT sister. We say he has little dog syndrome :laugh: infact he was dominant before she was on the scene.

Do you treat an obviously alpha dog different?

We try to greet him first verbally when we get Home

We let him out of his crate first in the mornings

We treat him first in "dual treat situations"

And we put his bowl down first when feeding.

Am I creating his alpha behaviour or helping it?

[persephone]

How old is this terror ?

[Dory the Doted One]

Do you treat an obviously alpha dog different?

There is only one Boss. That would be Me. Everyone is treated according to whatever it is they are doing at the time. Boisterious puppies that annoy and bounce on older dogs are turfed outside or crated. Older dogs that bully and boss young puppies...same. Everyone has their spot for eating (crates, we have resource guarding), no one is fed 'first' as such, but we do seem to have gravitated to an 'order'. Which is often disrupted by the fact that Dory does not need to be fed everytime Willow does. Dory gets this, and a simple 'back' command keeps her at bay. Because I'm the Boss. What I say, goes.

We try to greet him first verbally when we get Home

I walk in the door and both get quick pats, no one really gets first pats unless they are sitting still. It's usually chaos, so I manage it by taking them out to the backyard where Willow does zoomies and Dory sits on my feet. There is no pushing and shoving. If there was...I get up and walk away. NO ONE gets pats if there is pushing and shoving. NO ONE. Pats only happen when there is some decorum.

We let him out of his crate first in the mornings

Only Willow is crated, so moot point in our home. When both are crated I take who I need first, not who I think should go first. Or if Willow needs toilet time, she goes and Dory stays. It's mixed up a bit. If Dory needs something, then she goes and Willow stays.

We treat him first in "dual treat situations"

Whoever sits the nicest, gets the treat. Anyone who gets up or gets pushy...well...then no one gets a treat. So it's bum's down and all attentive and everyone is patient. It's based on behaviour that I want, not who I think should be 'Alpha'. Cos remember...I'm the Boss, I dole out the resources to who I see fit (ie. Who is behaving).

And we put his bowl down first when feeding.

It's whoever is the easiest to feed first. Generally it's Dory, because she's usually already sitting in her crate and waiting, where as Willow tends to follow behind me. There is no song and dance about feeding time. They only get fed when they comply to my demands...ie...waiting in their crates.

Am I creating his alpha behaviour or helping it?

You could be potentially creating a problem. But that is hard to know without assessing the behaviour.

My General Rule of Thumb:

Are you behaving in a way that I deem appropriate? If Yes. Reward. If No, No Reward. Reward being any kind of food or attention.

If in the course of giving a Reward, in appropriate behaviour is displayed...I'm walking away. My House. My Rules. I Giveth, and I Taketh Away.

My dogs are not physically punished. Any pushy behaviour is headed off at the pass, so to speak. In other words, it is stopped before it can escalate to a potentially hazardous point.

PS: I'm no expert. And all of the above is subject to change as the situation requires it.

[minimax]

I have an "alpha", my girl is dominant over my boy but she isn't dominant over me. I don't treat her first, or pay attention to her first (well, not intentionally). She does get fed first but that's because she gets fed in the kitchen and my boy gets fed in the sunroom, so that's purely logistics.

Why do you give him things first? What's the logic behind not treating them equally, or as Dory said, based on who earned it first?

[Weasels]

I don't know what you mean by dominant, but I'm with Dory - the best behaved dog gets the things, always. Dogs will do more of what gets them stuff, so you are reinforcing whatever the dog is doing when it gets fed/let out/whatever it wants at the time.

And I don't let them sort things out for themselves, any resource guarding, growling etc. gets them separated and dealt with directly.

Edited September 24, 2013 by TheLBD

[minimax]

I don't know what you mean by dominant, but I'm with Dory - the best behaved dog gets the things, always. Dogs will do more of what gets them stuff, so you are training whatever the dog is doing when it gets fed/let out/whatever it wants at the time.

And I don't let them sort things out for themselves, any resource guarding, growling etc. gets them separated and dealt with directly.

That's a good point too, what do you mean by dominant?

I say my girl, Max (yes, she's a girl) is dominant over my boy, Boston, for a few reasons. She humps him (usually his head), if she wants what he's got she will go up and take it from him (but won't let him take what she's got), if he is on my lap and she wants to be there she will either sit on him, or sit so she's closer to me than he is (usually this involves some combination of sitting on him in some awkward position until he moves), if she's bored she will randomly go and body slam him, swipe him, generally be a brat to start a fight in what looks like a "picking on a younger brother", walking on lead she has to walk in front of him, ... etc

But some might just say that's her being pug :laugh:

[Beckybecbec]

Thanks heaps for all the (so far) great responses :D

Dory your point by point answer was fantastic thanx

How old is this terror ?

He is 6 months - desexed

Why do you give him things first? What's the logic behind not treating them equally, or as Dory said, based on who earned it first?

Their trainer said to treat them as they would be treated in their pack. As dogs are in the end, pack animals

I don't know what you mean by dominant...

And I don't let them sort things out for themselves, any resource guarding, growling etc. gets them separated and dealt with directly.

Dominant pretty much exactly how minimax described her pug... takes her pigs ear/bone (even though he has one), takes toys, pulls her leash, lunges at her when she runs past, gets crabby at her when she tries to snuggle on him... he used to mount her A LOT but a lot of squirty bottle therapy has curbed that.

They're still kept apart 50% of the day... separated by a pet gated 2.5m opening. We want to curb most dominant behaviours over the next 8 weeks so they can be outside in Summer :)

[persephone]

Yes, dogs are a pack..

That pack includes you.

YOU are the alpha .

YOU make the rules .

Alpha wolves/dogs usually do not pander to another pack PUPPY by giving it food first/greeting it first - that sort of behaviour is what PUPPIES do to the alpha .

This little squirt /bully needs some serious educating ...

Have you read up on Nothing In Life Is Free ? I believe you should dedicate yourself/ves to starting this on a couple of days off ..so you can get into a good habit ..then continue it . It is fair and equal and the dog gets what it wants - attention/food/walk....without being a bully ;)

[Beckybecbec]

Thanx Persephone :)

[BlackJaq]

What a strange concept, tending to the dominant one first?

I do what Dory said, the best behaved one gets stuff first or nobody gets anything until all are in line. Or if they are particularly obnoxious I walk away and nobody gets anything at all.

Everybody here is fed separately, usually even treats that will take a while to consume so that everybody can have their food in peace without being picked on. The Maremma will hoard and eat everybody's food if he is not separate as being with stock a lot, he kinda has to eat quick or loose it to the poultry or sheep.

OH's dog has issues so he is kept separate from my dogs at all times.

The other three dogs (yes, we have five lol) can all share food and treats and be penned together without issues but it is still nice if they have their own space when eating. One of them is OH's new puppy (~ 6 months or so and she is from the pound) so she still needs to learn almost everything so is generally last for treats or has training separately from others

Bullies get locked in the pen on their own if they don't cut it out when told

ETA: Apart from OH's socially retarded dog, my Weimaraner girl is the doggy boss round here. She likes to hump the other dogs and can get rough when playing. She is not allowed to take it to extremes and pick on others and generally she just runs a very tight ship without bullying.

Edited September 24, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Weasels]

Scientific studies of feral, pariah and semi-domesticated dogs across multiple continents have shown they don't quite fit the definition of pack animals. Social certainly, and they'll pack up if they want to hunt something, but give them enough resources to survive comfortably (like in a home) and it's an opportunistic free-for-all. Dogs are, at heart, scavengers :)

But absolutely address the individual behaviours you don't like. Interrupt, redirect, teach self-control. But you may need to retrain each of these behaviours individually if the self-control lessons don't generalise straight away.

[Rebanne]

Actually it is not a strange concept to tend to the more dominant first. It's a theory I have read about over many years. It relates to upholding the natural pack order, keeping the balance. If the dogs have decided where their place is, after the human, then yes the higher dog gets things first. Dogs are usually happier knowing their place. It does not mean bullying is allowed. I've never had any two dogs at equal status. There has always been a leader, then ranked down to bottom dog. But I have always been the ultimate boss.

[Beckybecbec]

Thanks Rebanne... see I thought my thinking made a little sense... there is method to my madness eh? :D

I try the separation thing with pigs ears/bones... this just results in him sitting and stopping his bone/pigs ear and staring at her. Its pretty creepy how long he will sit there...

With dinner though she is a gannet and inhales hers, so I am shaping her to take herself to go and sit in their area (other side of pet gate) till he is done. Up to 10min max is how long he gets his food. Queerly they are civil while eating breakfast and dinner

[persephone]

Thanks Rebanne... see I thought my thinking made a little sense... there is method to my madness eh? :D

I try the separation thing with pigs ears/bones... this just results in him sitting and stopping his bone/pigs ear and staring at her. Its pretty creepy how long he will sit there...

With dinner though she is a gannet and inhales hers, so I am shaping her to take herself to go and sit in their area (other side of pet gate) till he is done. Up to 10min max is how long he gets his food. Queerly they are civil while eating breakfast and dinner

Is there any reason that you cannot totally separate them ..out of sight? You will find that this removes the stress from them both ..and they eat at their own pace happily ..then, once you pick up bowls and scraps .. they can be in a communal area again .

personally , I think it is unfair to have competitive pups/dogs in sight of others while eating .... ;)

[persephone]

Another thought - what does his breeder say ? Have they seen behaviour like this ? When was this guy castrated ? You say he's six months now?

[Beckybecbec]

Thanks Rebanne... see I thought my thinking made a little sense... there is method to my madness eh? :D

I try the separation thing with pigs ears/bones... this just results in him sitting and stopping his bone/pigs ear and staring at her. Its pretty creepy how long he will sit there...

With dinner though she is a gannet and inhales hers, so I am shaping her to take herself to go and sit in their area (other side of pet gate) till he is done. Up to 10min max is how long he gets his food. Queerly they are civil while eating breakfast and dinner

Is there any reason that you cannot totally separate them ..out of sight? You will find that this removes the stress from them both ..and they eat at their own pace happily ..then, once you pick up bowls and scraps .. they can be in a communal area again .

personally , I think it is unfair to have competitive pups/dogs in sight of others while eating .... ;)

Sure I can give that a go... Even though I dont see there to be any issues while they eat?

[kelpiecuddles]

You could also try feeding on a wider flat tray or in a speacially designed bowl to slow down his eating.

I do to some extent favour the top dog in our house. Not to a huge extent but she gets her food first, etc. She is getting older now and the order is changing and it looks like my basset is taking over as top dog(under the humans that is). I have started giving the basset's bone to her first in the evening instead of the kelpie and she is no longer snapping at the other dog which used to be a big problem.

I think it is a delicate balancing act though, between supporting the natural pecking order of the animals and taking it too far to where they think they can get one over everyone.

[persephone]

I do to some extent favour the top dog in our house. Not to a huge extent but she gets her food first, etc. She is getting older now and the order is changing and it looks like my basset is taking over as top dog(under the humans that is).

Isn't it a bit different though ... mature established dogs , as opposed to 6 mth old puppies ?

[persephone]

Thanks Rebanne... see I thought my thinking made a little sense... there is method to my madness eh? :D

I try the separation thing with pigs ears/bones... this just results in him sitting and stopping his bone/pigs ear and staring at her. Its pretty creepy how long he will sit there...

With dinner though she is a gannet and inhales hers, so I am shaping her to take herself to go and sit in their area (other side of pet gate) till he is done. Up to 10min max is how long he gets his food. Queerly they are civil while eating breakfast and dinner

Is there any reason that you cannot totally separate them ..out of sight? You will find that this removes the stress from them both ..and they eat at their own pace happily ..then, once you pick up bowls and scraps .. they can be in a communal area again .

personally , I think it is unfair to have competitive pups/dogs in sight of others while eating .... ;)

Sure I can give that a go... Even though I dont see there to be any issues while they eat?

Feeding them out of sight may , in a while relax them both so they do not need to do this :)

leaving his own food , and staring at her seems a bit odd .... esp as he will steal her food .

[kelpiecuddles]

Well they've been treated that way since they were puppies so not really any different, just further along in the whole scheme of things is all.