Clicker Training, A Good Idea?

[ness]

:laugh: yes well I wasn't going to mention the nip or the body slamming .

[Santo66]

Because nothing I could offer is even close to as rewarding as a gallop or a chase.

Studies of choice behaviour have consistently and repeatedly demonstrated that we can trump a big reward with lots of little rewards. So you don't necessarily need a better reward (or stronger negative reinforcer), but yes, overcoming a sighthound's drive to chase takes a lot more work!

Why not use an Ecollar correction to flatten the drive to chase live prey?

[Aidan3]

Because nothing I could offer is even close to as rewarding as a gallop or a chase.

Studies of choice behaviour have consistently and repeatedly demonstrated that we can trump a big reward with lots of little rewards. So you don't necessarily need a better reward (or stronger negative reinforcer), but yes, overcoming a sighthound's drive to chase takes a lot more work!

Why not use an Ecollar correction to flatten the drive to chase live prey?

People make choices based on their own reasons, but as far as I know you are free to do that if you like.

[Santo66]

I would be the last person to suggest that all dogs have equal potential.

Yet it appears you are implying that all dogs have equal potential in response to an +R training regime? IME they don't......the higher the genetic drive of the dog, the better they respond to +R and the worse they respond to aversive and vice versa. In relation to the OP's questions regarding clicker training +R and the reliability of that regime on the average dog, that is I don't think the OP is grooming for agility competition or the like that I have established from their post, my advice to the OP's situation is this:

If you employ a trainer or attend a club that trains in only +R, if they apply the method properly and your dog has adequate drive level to suit that training style, you will get a good result. If your dog is lower in drive, has drive in the wrong place, is easily distracted or has problem behaviour from a genetic perspective, you are better off with a trainer or club who specialise in training dogs, not trainers or clubs who specialise in marketing training methods. Regardless if the method marketed and practiced is +R or aversive methods, the wrong method applied to the wrong dog type will result in a stuff up or a grave limitation on the dog's training potential.

A good trainer IMHO is someone experienced in all methods of training a wide range of dog types, who has the ability to assess a dog properly and determine the best method or tools most suitable for that dog and owner be that a clicker or tug toy or perhaps a prong collar or a combination of either. The most training failures I have seen I would confidently say to the value of 90% is +R used on dogs of the wrong type who respond better to some aversive procedures in the training regime as far as general obedience and reliability goes in the average pet. :)

[Aidan3]

Who knows what anything I say appears like to you? :laugh:

[sheena]

Drive has nothing to do with it & I don't believe that drive is purely genetic anyway. You don't need a dog with drive to respond well to the clicker & you don't need to be training for agility either I first learnt how to use the clicker when I went to a dancing with dogs seminar. If you are really interested, then get hold of "Control Unleashed" & it may open up your mind a bit as to what can be achieved with rewards plus method. Last night I gave my two their first clicker session on "how to ride a skateboard".

[sheena]

Who knows what anything I say appears like to you? :laugh:

We are trying to get across to someone who has a blank mind to what can be achieved with positive reinforcement. Hope he/she never turns up in our club Strange how we havn't heard back from the OP since first posting the question. I hope she has gone out to buy her first clicker & a good book on how to use it properly. Or if she comes back on here & asks questions, those of us who know the proper way to use it, can point her in the right direction. :)

[Santo66]

Who knows what anything I say appears like to you? :laugh:

I just told you how it appears to me from what you are saying, that is: It appears you are implying that all dogs have equal potential in response to an +R training regime, yes or no?

Drive has nothing to do with it & I don't believe that drive is purely genetic anyway. You don't need a dog with drive to respond well to the clicker & you don't need to be training for agility either I first learnt how to use the clicker when I went to a dancing with dogs seminar. If you are really interested, then get hold of "Control Unleashed" & it may open up your mind a bit as to what can be achieved with rewards plus method. Last night I gave my two their first clicker session on "how to ride a skateboard".

Drive has nothing to do with it and drive isn't genetic....are you serious The clicker is a marker, click and reward yes?. A dog with drive has greater motivation to earn the reward....sure it works with a low drive dog free of distractions.....add some distractions and pressure and see how it works then in comparison to how it works with a high drive dog?

We are trying to get across to someone who has a blank mind to what can be achieved with positive reinforcement.

Actually, my youngest two are trained in +R to a great extent...one is working line GSD the other a Malinois X Dutch Shepherd and reward based methods with these dogs works fantastically well, in fact it works so well it highlights how poor it works with dogs lacking the drive to support it is my observation and the point I am making

Edited October 2, 2013 by Santo66

[Weasels]

If you put a dog in a situation it isn't ready for it will fail. If you set the dog up with gradually increasing criteria and differentially reinforce the preferred behaviour it will succeed. Not everyone wants to commit to doing the latter, but it will still work.

[Kavik]

My GSD doesn't have a lot of drive, I struggled a lot with motivation with him (he also has health problems which doesn't help). I wish I had known what I do now about engagement, and how to make myself and my rewards more interesting, and how to be more fun (and have more fun in my training) when he was younger, as my aim had been to do competition obedience with him but we never quite got there.

[Vickie]

I don't think anyone is questioning that high drive dogs in competent hands have more potential with any training method.

The theory being put forward (that you seem to be disputing) is that clicker/ R+ training can have significant positive impact on dogs of all drives.

I have trained a number of "low drive" dogs now using R+

.Dog 1:

Started. hiding in a corner if there was any hint of training. she was so distracted by other dogs, cars, bikes etc that it was impossible to keep her attention. Had zero interest in balls or toys.Finished. Winning a National event. Ended up ball obsessed & has a pretty decent tug. She wasn't low drive at all, she had just had too much pressure put on her too early in her training.

Dog 2:

Started. Would not accept food or move out of a walk outside of her home environment.Now: currently running qualifying speeds in agility and enjoying it. Still a work in progress & plenty more to come. This dog does not have a high drive, but has learnt to function & succeed in very distracting environments.

Dog 3:

Started. Plenty of drive, but for all the wrong things. Spent his whole life with his finger up, zero interest in handler, other Dogs wanted to attack him on sight.Now. The model citizen, rarely take his eyes off his owners face, runs freely without offending other dogs, incredible focus in competition.

None of these owners set out to achieve more success than others who have dogs with better genetic drives. They set out to improve the life of THEIR dog and the relationship they share. All have worked hard & all have found success in positive training methods. The dogs no longer crumble under pressure or distraction. All have started with food (regardless of drive, all dogs have to eat, right?) and after building reward history & good habits, switched to toys successfully.

These dogs might not have the drive to survive in Santo66 world, but they have already exceeded their owners expectations & will continue to do so.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Vickie

[Aidan3]

All dogs do not have equal potential regardless of training style. I have no idea why you imagined I said otherwise when it's so self-evidently true.

[huski]

If you put a dog in a situation it isn't ready for it will fail. If you set the dog up with gradually increasing criteria and differentially reinforce the preferred behaviour it will succeed. Not everyone wants to commit to doing the latter, but it will still work.

It's not always about commitment or even whether its possible to achieve, more often than not its about what can be achieved in a reasonable amount of time and within the owners skill range.

[Weasels]

It's not always about commitment or even whether its possible to achieve, more often than not its about what can be achieved in a reasonable amount of time and within the owners skill range.

Which is still a matter of "I didn't" not "it couldn't be done".

[Santo66]

If you put a dog in a situation it isn't ready for it will fail. If you set the dog up with gradually increasing criteria and differentially reinforce the preferred behaviour it will succeed. Not everyone wants to commit to doing the latter, but it will still work.

It's not always about commitment or even whether its possible to achieve, more often than not its about what can be achieved in a reasonable amount of time and within the owners skill range.

I gave an example of exactly this earlier in the discussion regarding a reactive dog trained in +R for 6 months and yes it was working with the reactivity distance threshold halved in that time and the dog could be walked within 20 metres of another dog and remained focused where initially it was 50 metres+ and the dog was starting to react.

With a change of training method and a prong collar the reactivity distance was reduced down to 5 metres in 30 minutes and after a week on this method, the owner can walk passed another dog on the footpath reaction free and the dog will now take a treat reward as a double reinforcer for the right behaviour on the prong after a close encounter with another dog, that is the boundaries set by the prong correction has reduced stress levels dramatically in a very short period of time.

+R trainers work on exactly the opposite of this where corrections cause stress and fallout......it can but for the most part it's complete bullshit, yet they deprive the dog and owner of success in a reasonable amount of time by honouring a training method sometimes in a cult like fashion to avoid any form of punishment at all costs.......perhaps these trainers are the one's to open their eyes when wasting peoples time for the sake of a more productive method of training?

Not everyone has months or years setting dogs up for success to say which is primarily the essence of it, "I achieved this without correcting my dog", but what they don't tell us is that it took a hell of a lot of work and two years to accomplish what could have been achieved in 30 minutes with the right method for a given dog!!

My GSD doesn't have a lot of drive, I struggled a lot with motivation with him (he also has health problems which doesn't help). I wish I had known what I do now about engagement, and how to make myself and my rewards more interesting, and how to be more fun (and have more fun in my training) when he was younger, as my aim had been to do competition obedience with him but we never quite got there.

My GSD doesn't have a lot of drive, I struggled a lot with motivation with him (he also has health problems which doesn't help). I wish I had known what I do now about engagement, and how to make myself and my rewards more interesting, and how to be more fun (and have more fun in my training) when he was younger, as my aim had been to do competition obedience with him but we never quite got there.

This theory of doing things differently with GSD's to build drive and motivation in dogs that lack it has been extensively tested in police K9 training programs with the result if a green dog won't chase a ball with vigour and enjoy a tug toy above all else, it fails first base and is rejected for foundation training. It's been proven time and time again in this field that drive cannot be extracted by training regardless of the method from a dog who lacks the genetic drive component necessary for the job. I agree that doing things differently may produce a better result by extracting everything the dog has in potential, but a dog lacking genetic drive component compared with a dog who has it, will remain limited to what can be achieved with that particular dog.

It's a major reason working dog programs are beginning to induct Malinois over GSD's as the Malinois is more plentiful by numbers in the drive component especially trained in +R :)

Edited October 3, 2013 by Santo66

[Kavik]

Of course he would have failed police dog training, I don't doubt that :laugh:. That sort of level was never my aim, simply I wanted to get the best out of my dog, and wanted to try my hand at competing. In the end you have to work with the dog you have.

I think one of my problems is simply that he works differently to the Kelpies, and this was my first ever attempt to train a dog up for competition. I got too caught up in training behaviours, and didn't pay enough attention to building value for working with me. I didn't know enough about transitioning from training to competition. I also got very nervous and stressed in any trial like run throughs.

While he never would have been a SchH dog, I think he had enough go in him to at least get the lower level obedience titles (Rally would have suited us better, as you can talk to them, at least as much for my benefit as his, it helps me to stay upbeat and not nervous, still a long way for me to go before I am ready to tackle ob trials!). Any title in a field is an achievement :) .

[raineth]

Honestly I have a really, really low drive dog in Mr Digby, who takes his inspiration for living from sloths.

And I have still successfully clicker trained him to do loads of stuff, and honestly I'm quite retarded.

Mr Digby closes doors, and targets a variety of objects, and picks things up, and does box work and jumps over my arms and does some nice heeling and some nice stays and all sorts of stuff.

So while he might not be cut out for competition, it still shows he's amenable to +R and it's very much helped to make him a lovely pet to be around and given us both some fun along the way.

eta: oh yes so my point is that you don't need a high drive dog to achieve things with +R, it can still work well on low drive dogs and be used to get them to work to their potential.

Edited October 3, 2013 by raineth

[Santo66]

Of course he would have failed police dog training, I don't doubt that :laugh:. That sort of level was never my aim, simply I wanted to get the best out of my dog, and wanted to try my hand at competing. In the end you have to work with the dog you have.

I think one of my problems is simply that he works differently to the Kelpies, and this was my first ever attempt to train a dog up for competition. I got too caught up in training behaviours, and didn't pay enough attention to building value for working with me. I didn't know enough about transitioning from training to competition. I also got very nervous and stressed in any trial like run throughs.

While he never would have been a SchH dog, I think he had enough go in him to at least get the lower level obedience titles (Rally would have suited us better, as you can talk to them, at least as much for my benefit as his, it helps me to stay upbeat and not nervous, still a long way for me to go before I am ready to tackle ob trials!). Any title in a field is an achievement :) .

I was taught that performance was all about training and that's what I did too, worked with the dog I had and I wasn't very good at it no matter how hard I tried, but I never really thought much about the dog's ability and blamed myself for doing things wrong as the reason why my dog didn't work properly. I did get one obedience title on a GSD years ago just scraping it in :laugh:

To cut a long story short, it wasn't until searching for GSD last time from high drive lines that I noticed such a massive difference in overall response like the dog had done it all before in a former life......I didn't really train much better, but the dog just did it with ease compared to what I was used to in my previous lower drive dogs.....primarily training in +R on this dog it's awesome. Loving what I can do with drive, a KNPV line Malinois X Dutch Shepherd came of for adoption and couldn't resist....he also responds the same in drive....my point in the discussion was drive and +R is like a duck to water where lower drive dogs alternative methods are more effective from my experiences.

Honestly I have a really, really low drive dog in Mr Digby, who takes his inspiration for living from sloths.

Perhaps are you mistaking drive for energy.....drive as in drive to earn reward? A friend has an old fat Labrador who can barely get up the front steps, but has a sensational food drive and she responds well to treat reward and easily trains in +R........it depends on the dog really.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Santo66

[raineth]

He is low energy, but he is very definitely low drive Santo. Do you think of sloths being low energy but highly motivated animals? Because I don't, but I'm by no means a sloth expert :) so could be wrong.

The bit of drive he has now, has been built up by using +R. And he is still very much low drive.

Honestly I wish someone on here had met him so they could vouch for just how hilarious it is to think he might actually not be low drive.

[Kavik]

My Kelpies are MUCH higher drive than my GSD, and of course are easier to motivate, but I still struggled for a long time with focus and getting the performance in agility that I wanted and knew the dog was capable of. I had issues with Kaos running out of the ring, leaving to visit friends or just to wander. It was only when I learned more about engagement/relationship building and how to build value for me that I started getting the kind of focus I wanted, and our performance improved dramatically. This has made me believe that I could have improved the performance of my now retired dogs if I had known what I do now.