Clicker Training, A Good Idea?

[airlock]

hi guys, we are in the process of training our dog and about to enrol him in puppy school, we have found a few round the area. most of the schools seem to use positive training usually with a clicker and one or two describe themselves as using "traditional methods" and employing correction.

we are bit stuck.

like any one researching training i have come across quite a few examples of both that work really well but have also read lots of bad reviews about both, positive trying seems like it would be kinder and more enjoyable for the dog, but on the other hand most of the dogs i have met that have been trained in this method are semi reliable at best and there owners have little or no control over them if they are distracted by something more interesting then whatever is being offered as a reward.

on the other hand i have met a few dogs that have been trained using correction methods as well and one or two of these have been nervous wrecks, obedient but not happy.

Can positive training ever really work for everyday amateurs like myself in terms of giving as high an obedience level as possible or will i always be worrying that something is more interesting to him then me?

i would prefer positive training methods but like i said i simply haven't seen any truly good real life examples.

[Simply Grand]

Yes positive training (as in marking and rewarding desirable behaviour and ignoring undesirable behaviour) can and does work very well!! Yes you absolutely can get as high an obedience level as possible utilising it, provided you understand what motivates your dog the most and use that as the ultimate reward, and are consistent.

Effective use of punishment is much more difficult to get right, the timing has to be absolute split second and te aversive has to be very precisely managed to be effective without being damaging to the dog.

Maybe check out some of the dogs doing higher levels of obedience and other dog sports at training at your club and/or trials and talk to people about how they've trained their dogs.

[Ptolomy]

My Grand obedience champion was clicker trained from 8 weeks of age - just goes to show you what you can achieve

[hankdog]

I trained a dog way back in the 80's when choke chains were it, luckily he was a dog that loved to train and seldom needed correction. I'm training a 6 year old multiple issues dog at the moment. He really couldn't give a hoot about leash corrections. at his worst he was quite happy to take his front legs off the ground on a prong collar. Clicker training has been the way to reach him. It established a dialog, allowed him to be proactive and taught him how to succeed. The thing about positive only is its very subtle and with the help of a professional I'm learning to withhold treats in order to get him to speed up and get that lovely quick enthusiastic response. He gets the odd "huh huh" for actively doing something wrong and a small leash pop if he needs it. Honestly go investigate all possible methods and see which "gels" with your dog and if you didn't get it, for me clicker training rocks!

[huski]

I don't think using corrections is anymore difficult than using rewards, in fact I find more pet owners struggle with getting rewarding right than corrections.

As with anything this isn't a black and white question because so much depends on the dog and owner and what you are training. What do you mean when you say can you only train a dog with positive methods? Does this refer to only using positive reinforcement? If so then no I don't believe you can train a dog effectively with only R+.

When we look at using rewards in training there are one million and one ways to do so, the same goes for using corrections. I see ineffective trainers using both and I see super awesome trainers get great results with both.

A clicker is just a tool so how effective it can be to train a dog is purely dependent on the person using it.

Edited September 20, 2013 by huski

[BC4ME]

hi guys, we are in the process of training our dog and about to enrol him in puppy school, we have found a few round the area. most of the schools seem to use positive training usually with a clicker and one or two describe themselves as using "traditional methods" and employing correction.

we are bit stuck.

like any one researching training i have come across quite a few examples of both that work really well but have also read lots of bad reviews about both, positive trying seems like it would be kinder and more enjoyable for the dog, but on the other hand most of the dogs i have met that have been trained in this method are semi reliable at best and there owners have little or no control over them if they are distracted by something more interesting then whatever is being offered as a reward.

on the other hand i have met a few dogs that have been trained using correction methods as well and one or two of these have been nervous wrecks, obedient but not happy.

Can positive training ever really work for everyday amateurs like myself in terms of giving as high an obedience level as possible or will i always be worrying that something is more interesting to him then me?

i would prefer positive training methods but like i said i simply haven't seen any truly good real life examples.

Anything is achievable if you learn to use the tools correctly.

I agree with Huski I've seen lots of good and bad pet owners & trainers try and use a method of training without totally understanding it. This only brings confusion to the dog and frustration to the handler.

Can you train using R+, yes. Can you train using correction, yes.

You need to find a way that works and makes a happy working partnership for you and your dog, learn how to use those methods correctly then you are on your way to success.

Ask lots of questions education is the key to success.

[persephone]

basically, whichever way you train , it is the OWNER's mastering of the methods which determines the way their dog turns out ;)

[persephone]

we are in the process of training our dog

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[dragonwoman]

My observation over many years is that it is all to do with timing and understanding dog brains.........regardless of method.................have known people spend small fortunes on workshops and private lessons and they still don't have it..........others have innate ability and get it straight away..........they have the lucky dogs!!

[persephone]

My observation over many years is that it is all to do with timing and understanding dog brains.........regardless of method.................have known people spend small fortunes on workshops and private lessons and they still don't have it..........others have innate ability and get it straight away..........they have the lucky dogs!!

yes .. :)

[sheena]

My two dogs have been trained using the clicker and/or marking & rewarding the behaviour I want both for general obedience, good manners & agility. By using the clicker you are shaping the dog to think for themselves, therefor, the dog is more inclined to remember what he did to get that click, then if, for say, you just lured him or corrected every bad behaviour till you got the right one. I can't even imagine training with corrections. My dogs love the clicker so much, that to play "clicker", it has become a reward in itself.

[OSoSwift]

My dogs are essentially clicker trained.

They are very well trained and extremely reliable. They are Whippets and I have called them off live prey. I live on a farm with stock fencing and they are off lead in the 5 acres around the house.

They are well trained as far as obedience goes and well trained for day to day life as well

[helen]

The very essence of positive training begins with good attention IMO - so hopefully that helps to answer your question.

[Santo66]

My two dogs have been trained using the clicker and/or marking & rewarding the behaviour I want both for general obedience, good manners & agility. By using the clicker you are shaping the dog to think for themselves, therefor, the dog is more inclined to remember what he did to get that click, then if, for say, you just lured him or corrected every bad behaviour till you got the right one. I can't even imagine training with corrections. My dogs love the clicker so much, that to play "clicker", it has become a reward in itself.

Working Border Collies.......high drive dogs with genetic focus, of course clicker training and reward based methods work awesome with dogs like that which is half the problem when performance dogs are shown as result of a training method where the old mutt with no drive or drive in the wrong place that doesn't assist in training is a completely different story as to what method will work best.

I am a firm believer that no single method works best on every dog and a good trainer is someone who knows the difference in a dog's character to apply the method best suited to the particular dog and owner. Any method pushers who either use only reward based methods or punishment based for every dog compromises the full spectrum of training potential attainable with a balanced training approach. In other words, any trainers or clubs that only support one method are half arsed IMHO.

[OSoSwift]

What about whippets does it only work with them because they are high drive dogs with genetic focus?

Yes some dogs are harder than others and some make you work damn hard. It is our job as a trainer to find what motivates our dog and what they find rewarding.

[Santo66]

What about whippets does it only work with them because they are high drive dogs with genetic focus?

Yes some dogs are harder than others and some make you work damn hard. It is our job as a trainer to find what motivates our dog and what they find rewarding.

And the choice is pretty well toys and food as a motivation/reward basis and depending on the individual dog how much value the dog places on toys and food determines if the dog needs an additional consequence for the wrong behaviour. Not all dogs have the same levels of need for toy and food reward and too much time is often wasted training dogs in reward based methods that don't have a high level response to those rewards. As an example, some dogs find chasing cats rewarding which is a reward drive in the wrong place where no other reward overrides the desire to chase a cat......those type of dogs need a good correction as a consequence of what happens if you chase a cat.

Same applies with cronic sniffers, the one's who nearly rip your arm out of it's socket to dart off and sniff something, that is the environment and desire to sniff for that dog is a major distraction with self reward. Sometimes a chronic sniffer can be rehabilitated on a prong collar in 20 minutes where it's been under reward based methods for 6 months with little improvement....wrong method for that dog.

One of mine's training kit is a prong collar, another (same breed) is a ball, in fact the ball motivated dog doesn't need a collar and leash at all, correct behaviour can be attained solely by compliance for toy reward, but each dog has entirely different drive levels and the same training methods cannot be used on both dogs, the routine for each is completely different to get the same result.

Training method depends on the individual dog and what motivates the dog the most, be it fear of correction or reward or a combination of both methods and a trainer with full box of tools and a head space that accommodates all methods is my interpretation of "good" :D

I equally dislike trainers who apply reward based methods to every dog as I do with trainers who dangle every dog on the end of a choke chain....the best training method IMHO depends on the dog and the owner's capabilities which ever that may be.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Santo66

[fuzzy82]

I know some very good, balanced trainers who have nothing against the use of corrections on certain dogs in certain circumstances, and they don't recommend using ANY aversives on puppies younger than 20 weeks due to their brain development and fear periods.

I'd question the dog training skills of anyone who needs to or wants to use corrections on young puppies. There is simply no need.

[fuzzy82]

What about whippets does it only work with them because they are high drive dogs with genetic focus?

Yes some dogs are harder than others and some make you work damn hard. It is our job as a trainer to find what motivates our dog and what they find rewarding.

And the choice is pretty well toys and food as a motivation/reward basis and depending on the individual dog how much value the dog places on toys and food determines if the dog needs an additional consequence for the wrong behaviour. Not all dogs have the same levels of need for toy and food reward and too much time is often wasted training dogs in reward based methods that don't have a high level response to those rewards. As an example, some dogs find chasing cats rewarding which is a reward drive in the wrong place where no other reward overrides the desire to chase a cat......those type of dogs need a good correction as a consequence of what happens if you chase a cat.

Same applies with cronic sniffers, the one's who nearly rip your arm out of it's socket to dart off and sniff something, that is the environment and desire to sniff for that dog is a major distraction with self reward. Sometimes a chronic sniffer can be rehabilitated on a prong collar in 20 minutes where it's been under reward based methods for 6 months with little improvement....wrong method for that dog.

This is just bad training IMO. As a trainer you should be using what your dog finds rewarding. If a dog isn't motivated by the traditional food or toys, then you need to use other things. You can use being allowed to run off leash or go sniff as rewards, and you can also direct prey drive into toys with not all that much effort.

Punishing a dog for seeking out something it finds rewarding is bad training, and ruins a potentially great reward. Yes, you'll get a well-behaved dog with a prong collar, but you won't have an enthusiastic dog who wants to work for you. A good trainer doesn't remove things that motivate the dog, they learn to use them to actually motivate the dog to work.

[Vickie]

And the choice is pretty well toys and food as a motivation/reward basis and depending on the individual dog how much value the dog places on toys and food determines if the dog needs an additional consequence for the wrong behaviour. Not all dogs have the same levels of need for toy and food reward and too much time is often wasted training dogs in reward based methods that don't have a high level response to those rewards.

You make it sound like we, as trainers, have no ability to change/develop a dog's motivation/reward value for food or toys

Edited September 29, 2013 by Vickie

[Weasels]

Force-free/'R+'/LIMA training isn't a method, it's an ethical decision. Just as vegetarians aren't stuck only eating sprouts and tofu, the training we do is limited only by our knowledge, imagination and commitment.

E - and no minute I've ever spent with my dogs has been wasted time

Edited September 29, 2013 by TheLBD