Is Your Vet Ripping You Off? Choice Article

[Little Gifts]

Sorry, just need to add that T has worked in a shelter, fostered squillions of puppies and is a very intelligent cookie so she has developed a higher level of understanding and knowledge about certain canine illnesses and treatment options. Obviously she can't just go and ask for drugs to treat an issue she knows is presenting itself in one of her dogs, so 'training' may conjure up something a bit more cocky than she means. I'm sure her aim is to just be dealing with a vet on her same wave length who is able to acknowledge her level of skill in being able to manage a health issue without the additional assistance some of us might need. I can't even get desex stitches out of a foster dog myself and DoG help me if I have to give a dog a tablet that can't be wrapped in food! On the other hand I provide excellent post surgical care and have never had a vet make me leave a dog in overnight after a surgical procedure!

[Diva]

Though in reality, how many people actually question a treatment their Doctor prescribes? (ask yourself how many times you yourself have actually done it?). Same when it comes to the average person and their vet. I think the large majority of dog owners who frequently post on this forum are not really 'average' either, rather they are more inclined to question than the 'average' owner. Can't count the number of times I have heard someone say 'my vet said 'this' so that is what I do - after all they are the vet'.

yes, which is a bit of a worry as the vet down the road may give a different answer, and unless you have had the chance to test and build trust in their expertise it can be a bit hairy sometimes. I learnt the hard way to ask detailed questions and only go to a vet who listens to me, after one vet told me my dying dog (IMHA) was perfectly well and I was overeacting to his symptoms, and two more diagnosed bone cancer as cruciate injuries despite my telling them to their face that it was almost certainly bone cancer (based on breed predisposition, age and symptoms).

I have come to shop for a new vet more like mechanics than doctors - be very skeptical, shop around, get personal recommendations, take price into account but don't make it the primary criteria, and when you find one that suits, be loyal and stick to them like glue! I have the greatest respect for my current vets :)

Edited September 13, 2013 by Diva

[tdierikx]

Sorry, just need to add that T has worked in a shelter, fostered squillions of puppies and is a very intelligent cookie so she has developed a higher level of understanding and knowledge about certain canine illnesses and treatment options. Obviously she can't just go and ask for drugs to treat an issue she knows is presenting itself in one of her dogs, so 'training' may conjure up something a bit more cocky than she means. I'm sure her aim is to just be dealing with a vet on her same wave length who is able to acknowledge her level of skill in being able to manage a health issue without the additional assistance some of us might need. I can't even get desex stitches out of a foster dog myself and DoG help me if I have to give a dog a tablet that can't be wrapped in food! On the other hand I provide excellent post surgical care and have never had a vet make me leave a dog in overnight after a surgical procedure!

Spot on there LG - although "very intelligent" is subjective in this case... lol!

Next time you are in Sydney, come on around, and I'll give you a crash course in suture removal... I will even give you a couple of suture cutters to keep... hehe! I can show you the quick and easy tablet insertion technique too... works for large or small dogs...

T.

[Little Gifts]

Sorry, just need to add that T has worked in a shelter, fostered squillions of puppies and is a very intelligent cookie so she has developed a higher level of understanding and knowledge about certain canine illnesses and treatment options. Obviously she can't just go and ask for drugs to treat an issue she knows is presenting itself in one of her dogs, so 'training' may conjure up something a bit more cocky than she means. I'm sure her aim is to just be dealing with a vet on her same wave length who is able to acknowledge her level of skill in being able to manage a health issue without the additional assistance some of us might need. I can't even get desex stitches out of a foster dog myself and DoG help me if I have to give a dog a tablet that can't be wrapped in food! On the other hand I provide excellent post surgical care and have never had a vet make me leave a dog in overnight after a surgical procedure!

Spot on there LG - although "very intelligent" is subjective in this case... lol!

Next time you are in Sydney, come on around, and I'll give you a crash course in suture removal... I will even give you a couple of suture cutters to keep... hehe! I can show you the quick and easy tablet insertion technique too... works for large or small dogs...

T.

I swear your explanatory post wasn't there when I did this one! I wouldn't have responded if I thought you were online and able to respond yourself!

And I agree about the farm thing. Lots of making do occurs when you live hours from the nearest town, regardless of whether the illness is human or animal related!

[sandgrubber]

Few vets get rich. Running a practice isn't cheap. They have to pay for their overhead somehow.

Maybe the owners of vet practice chains are raking it in: I avoid chains because they tend to get vets right out of school, and I would prefer a vet with a few years of practice.

The real money hogs in the system are the veterinary pharmaceutical manufacturers. The mark ups on everyday dog meds, like flea and tick prevention, are horrendous. If you purchase the commercial livestock version of a drug like, say, ivomectin, your cost per dose is often 1/10, or less, of what you would pay for the same amount of active ingredient in a canine formulation.

[Whiskered]

I think it's insulting to say that you 'train your vet' - I let my vet do his job and don't tell him how to do it.

X2...

While "train" may not be the best word we should feel we can question vets just like we question our own doctors about treatments etc. Long gone are the "doctors are Gods" days of yesteryear.

Though in reality, how many people actually question a treatment their Doctor prescribes? (ask yourself how many times you yourself have actually done it?). Same when it comes to the average person and their vet. I think the large majority of dog owners who frequently post on this forum are not really 'average' either, rather they are more inclined to question than the 'average' owner. Can't count the number of times I have heard someone say 'my vet said 'this' so that is what I do - after all they are the vet'.

That is an interesting point espinay2 and I think I can shed light on people questioning treatments prescribed by doctors and veterinarian as I've spent the last 17 years working in the veterinary industry (and still do part time). I will also be graduating as a doctor (of humans) next year.

The number of people who question treatment by both professions would make your head spin. Anecdotally, it is often the people with very little education or just enough knowledge in any given area to feel knowledgeable who question recommended treatments. Ironically, it is almost always people from this group who will on occasion blatantly lie about aspects of symptoms, being apparently unaware that the writing is on the wall for the professional - vet or human doctor. These people would probably be considered average pet owners I guess. With all due respect for individuals right to make treatment choices for themselves and/or their pets, more often than not they will refuse one or more aspects of treatment based on beliefs that are impossible to reason with.

However, people who have extensive experience in appropriate animal care and often those with a reasonable level of higher education (not necessarily animal related at all) often have a different approach to interacting with veterinarians. I think they appreciate the rigorous education vets receive and the clinical experience they amass over time. I agree that many people on this forum are not average dog owners but I don't think this type of owner is more inclined to question treatment as a matter of course than the average owner. Rather, because they have a genuine working knowledge base greater than the average owner I think (hope) they would be more inclined to respectfully question veterinary treatments to achieve a greater understanding of why a particular treatment has been recommended for them at that time. In stark contrast to "average owner" questioning or refusing it because 30 years ago Uncle Bob's mate paid for something that could possibly have been similar...maybe... and it didn't end well or they read some fear mongering on a blog somewhere or someone at arvo school pick up has an opinion on aspects of veterinary medicine that simply must be fact.

Having a clear understanding of the justification for investigations and treatments in their situation is something every pet owner should absolutely strive to achieve - and they should find a vet who is willing explain it to them thoroughly, patiently and in terms they understand. Of course not all vets will have an inclination to justify recommendations they have trained for years to develop the skills to be able to make. But those people are in all professions and in every walk of life and it has absolutely no reflection on the quality of their technical skills or ability to provide safe, effective treatment for the animal when their ....errr.... people skills aren't on show in the consult room.

[tdierikx]

I think it's insulting to say that you 'train your vet' - I let my vet do his job and don't tell him how to do it.

X2...

While "train" may not be the best word we should feel we can question vets just like we question our own doctors about treatments etc. Long gone are the "doctors are Gods" days of yesteryear.

Though in reality, how many people actually question a treatment their Doctor prescribes? (ask yourself how many times you yourself have actually done it?). Same when it comes to the average person and their vet. I think the large majority of dog owners who frequently post on this forum are not really 'average' either, rather they are more inclined to question than the 'average' owner. Can't count the number of times I have heard someone say 'my vet said 'this' so that is what I do - after all they are the vet'.

I also insist on being thoroughly appraised of treatment options for myself with "human" doctors/specialists... I will make an informed decision based on those options, and maybe come up with a few of my own as well.

Case in point: - my recent issues with nerve pain after a large inflammatory lesion was found in my thoracic spine - I refused a lumbar puncture because what they were wanting to use it to test for could be done with a simple blood test (which came back negative). I also refused anti-convulsants and anti-depressants to manage the nerve pain - and instead went with a new treatment by my physio that is drug free and is returning great results with regards to pain management - which is allowing me to live a normal life and still do the things I want to do when I want to do them. If I had blindly accepted the first options offered by the neurologist without questioning other options, I have no doubt that I'd still be completely screwed up and contemplating suicide by now... it got pretty dark there for a while in any case...

If a vet or doctor won't explain things to you in terms you can understand enough to make an informed decsion about treatment options, then make them rephrase it until you DO understand. If they don't like it, that's just tough.

T.

[WreckitWhippet]

I look at that list and think that most owners should be spending more money on chiro, dental, grooming and premium food.

[Amstaff_Ambition]

The service fees at my regular vet are reasonable, a lot more so that their insane mark up on pharmaceuticals!

[Rosetta]

The service fees at my regular vet are reasonable, a lot more so that their insane mark up on pharmaceuticals!

I think this is where they make a lot of their profit. If you compare the prices online there is a big difference - sometimes three times the price through the vet.

[Daisys Mum]

I don't go to my vet because he is the cheapest around - I go there because the staff and the vets seem to care for the animals.

They are certainly not the cheapest vet in town but they are also not the most expensive either.

I don't care what he charges me - he is in business, has staff and premises.. I assume (because I deal with small to medium business everyday) he charges what he charges to cover his overheads and make a profit.. After all, that is why we go into business - to make a profit.. It is a bonus if we love what we do.

Consumers have always been able to vote with their feet - if you don't like what a vet charges, find another..

Yep this is me ..... I won't go to anywhere else, and if I eventually move I will still go there . They love my animals ... sometimes I think my dogs love the vet more than me :laugh:

Whether they are cheaper or more expensive I don't know because I have never been anywhere else to compare.

[Amstaff_Ambition]

The service fees at my regular vet are reasonable, a lot more so that their insane mark up on pharmaceuticals!

I think this is where they make a lot of their profit. If you compare the prices online there is a big difference - sometimes three times the price through the vet.

Or even more! I recently paid $25 for 200mls of liquid paraffin, in the supermarket it is $3.15! & $15 for an enema, at the the chemist the same one's are $15 for a box of 12!

Live and learn I guess.

[Staffyluv]

The service fees at my regular vet are reasonable, a lot more so that their insane mark up on pharmaceuticals!

I think this is where they make a lot of their profit. If you compare the prices online there is a big difference - sometimes three times the price through the vet.

Or even more! I recently paid $25 for 200mls of liquid paraffin, in the supermarket it is $3.15! & $15 for an enema, at the the chemist the same one's are $15 for a box of 12!

Live and learn I guess.

My vet writes me prescriptions to take to the chemist if they are cheaper than he can supply..

[sandgrubber]

The service fees at my regular vet are reasonable, a lot more so that their insane mark up on pharmaceuticals!

I think this is where they make a lot of their profit. If you compare the prices online there is a big difference - sometimes three times the price through the vet.

Or even more! I recently paid $25 for 200mls of liquid paraffin, in the supermarket it is $3.15! & $15 for an enema, at the the chemist the same one's are $15 for a box of 12!

Live and learn I guess.

My vet writes me prescriptions to take to the chemist if they are cheaper than he can supply..

Ditto, Staffyluv. My vet is also willing to help me with the dosages if I use livestock or human versions of drugs -- which are often MUCH cheaper than dog versions.

Established vet practices that aren't paying of an expensive real estate loan and loans for a lot of equipment can afford to ignor the profit motive. I'd hate to be fresh out of vet school and trying to pay for starting up a practice from scratch, while carrying student loans.

[trinabean]

I don't go to my vet because he is the cheapest around - I go there because the staff and the vets seem to care for the animals.

They are certainly not the cheapest vet in town but they are also not the most expensive either.

I don't care what he charges me - he is in business, has staff and premises.. I assume (because I deal with small to medium business everyday) he charges what he charges to cover his overheads and make a profit.. After all, that is why we go into business - to make a profit.. It is a bonus if we love what we do.

Consumers have always been able to vote with their feet - if you don't like what a vet charges, find another..

Yes, I take Bruno to a vet that is a good, thorough vet who keeps up with the latest research. He's probably not the cheapest, but not the most expensive either, and not a franchise. He genuinely likes animals too (that might sound odd, but I have met at least one vet who had no affinity for dogs). He sits on the floor and checks my dog over while patting him, allowing Bruno to feel relaxed. It's like visiting a friend rather than a scary vet visit.

Some of what my vet has recommended has made him less money, not more. For example he brought it the new vaccine protocols before the AVA recommended it, doing away with yearly vaccinations in adult dogs. He doesn't charge the earth for titre tests either.

So I go to this vet, because I trust his expertise. He also gives straight answers to questions and explains things well.

[stormie]

The service fees at my regular vet are reasonable, a lot more so that their insane mark up on pharmaceuticals!

I think this is where they make a lot of their profit. If you compare the prices online there is a big difference - sometimes three times the price through the vet.

Or even more! I recently paid $25 for 200mls of liquid paraffin, in the supermarket it is $3.15! & $15 for an enema, at the the chemist the same one's are $15 for a box of 12!

Live and learn I guess.

Just on this, I can't speak for all things, but I have occasionally ordered human medications through our Veterinary Wholesaler and I actually pay more cost price than I would if I actually went to a chemist. So it's not always about a huge mark-up. And with all things, online prices will always be lower due to a huge reduction in overheads. I've compared online things like parasite treatments as well as prescription medication and generally these places are selling stuff for only about $3-5 more than what we can buy it at.

Most profit is made through services, eg consults, surgery etc :)

[cannibalgoldfish]

I changed vets a while back. I recently had to take one of my boys in to get a lump looked at/removed.

. This included knocking out my dog (around 11 kilos if that helps)removing a rapidly growing thingy that went from a small bump to a big festy goo ridden lump in less than a week... Apparently said lump was in a bad place and vet told me it would destroy his tear duct. The vet decided that while Boxhead was out he might remove a wart that was growing happily on his eye lid.

So, they burnt off a wart on his eye lid,and cut out his lump,which luckily had't grown into his tear duct and was apparently pretty good in the way of lumps (It was "encapsulated')

Basically, at the end of the day I paid around $150? that included the original vet consultation the day before and the surgery the next day.

I was in shock a little...... Expected it to cost me far more...........

[Crisovar]

Having worked in the Veterinary Industry for many years, I could add lots to this thread but it is pointless, people are happiest believing they are being ripped off. I know of no other professional service provider where the overheads are as high as the Vet Industry, apart from maybe the huge new generation super medical clinics that provide in house diagnostics etc. The monthly drug bills alone would astound most reasonable people yet people still expect cheap or free. After all the years of university and the costs involved in trying to run a practice Vets deserve to make some profit yet people still don't like to pay for the time and professional service Vets provide.. Tradesmen are payed for their labour, why do people begrudge a Vet?

[Staranais]

A thread like this comes up every couple of years, with people complaining that they're being ripped off by their vet. Probably it's true in some cases - in most cases, it's not. It's just a case of people not understanding how much medicine really costs, and possibly a case of the vet not doing a good job at communicating why some things cost what they do.

I'm a vet, and talking about money with clients is a huge part of my job - and honestly it's probably my least favourite part. It's such an emotional subject for so many people, and talking about it can be like waking a tightrope.

Many people have little money, or just other priorities for their money, & my place isn't to judge anyone, but to try to provide the most accurate diagnosis and best care we can possibly achieve for their animal within their budget.

That doesn't mean that the more expensive diagnostic or treatment options I offer clients are me trying to rip them off. I hate the thought that owners may feel I'm trying to pad the bill by offering expensive options when cheap ones would have "worked OK". But if I neglect to offer advanced imaging/additional blood testing/referral cruciate surgery/a more expensive drug when I feel it is the BEST option for the dog, I'm doing the owners a disservice by assuming they care about their dog less than I care about mine.

As for drugs, it's true that vet drugs traditionally have a high mark up. However it's also true that veterinary surgery and per minute consult time tends to be far, far cheaper than the human equivalent. So a practice that sold drugs with little mark up would need to raise surgery and consult costs to compensate for the lost income there (they couldn't just swallow the loss - most practices aren't huge money spinners for their owners to start with, and they have to make money somewhere).

[Poodle wrangler]

I agree some vets have their eye on the $.

In some cases you wonder what happenned to good assessment skills and clinical judgement?

I "shopped around" late last year for dental work for 13 year old mini poodle after the local vet seemed keen on not only a dental, but a specialist consult for possible cataract surgery, with op >$2000.

I didn't have a regular vet in Canberra- only the one I used for routine vaccs.

Went from "definitely needs a dental" to "wait and see if continues to improve with the meaty bones, always a risk with anaesthetic".

$25 for short consult vs $650+ for cleaning and anaesthetic.

Unfortunately, all vets missed any signs of the brain tumour that killed Oscar 3 months later.

Thank God, our local vet here (who I knew much better) was sensible with everything when it came to that.

Poor Oscar deteriorated very, very quickly...

e.g. "I could do an XRay or MRI to confirm a tumour, his eye seems to be a bit further forward on one side, I've consulted with another vet, but it won't affect treatment options..."

Thankyou!!