Scary, But Highly Trained Police Dog

[Nekhbet]

What about tug? Tug with a sleeve?

Technically it's written the dog 'biting' anything attached to a human. Steve Austin from NSW was at a pet expo and was playing tug with his dog and got told off for doing it.

So by word of the law if you use a tug toy or bite pillow you hold in your hands that counts as bitework. Wonderful isn't it.

Like I said there is provisions in the law for licensed security businesses who get a permit to do the work, but the dogs then have to be muzzled. It's why the security dog industry has pretty much died compared to other states.

Such constrictions, you wonder why we have massive dog problems down here. We technically cannot use a thing or have proper dogsports for dogs that need it.

[huski]

Did someone mention Malinois? :D

[BlackJaq]

What about tug? Tug with a sleeve?

Technically it's written the dog 'biting' anything attached to a human. Steve Austin from NSW was at a pet expo and was playing tug with his dog and got told off for doing it.

So by word of the law if you use a tug toy or bite pillow you hold in your hands that counts as bitework. Wonderful isn't it.

Like I said there is provisions in the law for licensed security businesses who get a permit to do the work, but the dogs then have to be muzzled. It's why the security dog industry has pretty much died compared to other states.

Such constrictions, you wonder why we have massive dog problems down here. We technically cannot use a thing or have proper dogsports for dogs that need it.

I can't see how bite work is going to have any influence whatsoever on dog attacks, even if the ban is strictly adhered to.

Most attacks (pretty much all of them) seem to involve dogs who are not under effective control, i.e. off leash, not secured on property due to crappy fences or lack thereof and I think that lack of training and proper socialization would have to be right up there for causes...

And yet they are now looking at tightening laws again and having the onus of proof of dog breed on the owner aren't they They were even talking about adding more breeds to the restricted list...

Wonder how long it will take them to realize that their approach is part of the problem

Edited September 12, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Nekhbet]

I can't see how bite work is going to have any influence whatsoever on dog attacks, even if the ban is strictly adhered to.

Most attacks (pretty much all of them) seem to involve dogs who are not under effective control, i.e. off leash, not secured on property due to crappy fences or lack thereof and I think that lack of training and proper socialization would have to be right up there for causes...

And yet they are now looking at tightening laws again and having the onus of proof of dog breed on the owner aren't they They were even talking about adding more breeds to the restricted list...

Wonder how long it will take them to realize that their approach is part of the problem

Don't be logical :laugh:

We have a massive problem and the laws have been a great causative. Of course a lot of breeders and decent trainers left the state to go follow their passions, working dogs have less and less ability to outlet their natural drives. We have one dogsport club left pretty much in the state (although that will be changing soon ;) ) My main client base is working breeds for the school as we offer so many structured outlets - tracking, trailing, SAR, scent detection, competitive AUS/IPO obedience, agility etc and we stay small so dogs can actually get proper time with a trainer. I have dogs coming down from throughout the state, dogs written off as aggressive, untrainable etc because this sportdog type training is disappearing and of course it's what they need. Boredom breeds destruction, that goes for mentally as well. You can't argue with over 100 years of training tailored towards these dogs.

My oldest client just turned 60 and I'm helping her now with her second dobermann. She can easily handle the dog, not get pulled over or have the dog out of control and I'm trying to convince her to go enter a few competitions with her as she's done such a good job with the dog, it's not even 12 months yet.

The dogs I see here where I live with the potential to bite are frustrated, under trained (I wont say untrained as most of the owners do try and do they best they can with what information they can get) and/or of average genetics.

[BlackJaq]

I can't see how bite work is going to have any influence whatsoever on dog attacks, even if the ban is strictly adhered to.

Most attacks (pretty much all of them) seem to involve dogs who are not under effective control, i.e. off leash, not secured on property due to crappy fences or lack thereof and I think that lack of training and proper socialization would have to be right up there for causes...

And yet they are now looking at tightening laws again and having the onus of proof of dog breed on the owner aren't they They were even talking about adding more breeds to the restricted list...

Wonder how long it will take them to realize that their approach is part of the problem

Don't be logical :laugh:

We have a massive problem and the laws have been a great causative. Of course a lot of breeders and decent trainers left the state to go follow their passions, working dogs have less and less ability to outlet their natural drives. We have one dogsport club left pretty much in the state (although that will be changing soon ;) ) My main client base is working breeds for the school as we offer so many structured outlets - tracking, trailing, SAR, scent detection, competitive AUS/IPO obedience, agility etc and we stay small so dogs can actually get proper time with a trainer. I have dogs coming down from throughout the state, dogs written off as aggressive, untrainable etc because this sportdog type training is disappearing and of course it's what they need. Boredom breeds destruction, that goes for mentally as well. You can't argue with over 100 years of training tailored towards these dogs.

My oldest client just turned 60 and I'm helping her now with her second dobermann. She can easily handle the dog, not get pulled over or have the dog out of control and I'm trying to convince her to go enter a few competitions with her as she's done such a good job with the dog, it's not even 12 months yet.

The dogs I see here where I live with the potential to bite are frustrated, under trained (I wont say untrained as most of the owners do try and do they best they can with what information they can get) and/or of average genetics.

How sad, and of course it is only the law abiding people being punished because old Joe Hillbilly is not going to tell anybody that he works his dogs with a welding glove down the back....

I have to say though, I don't think I have heard of many actual attacks in Australia where the dog was directed to attack by the owner. You'd think that shit would be all over the news. The only one that comes to mind is the guy who was murdered after siccing his dogs on several people, I forget where.

So what is their reason for banning it? I guess they would have similarly harebrained justifications as for bsl....

Edited September 13, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Nekhbet]

So what is their reason for banning it? I guess they would have similarly harebrained justifications as for bsl....

Because in conjunction with the ideas of the GSDC and ANKC, all bitework is dangerous and encourages aggression towards people and we don't want that we just prefer big working breeds that we try to cram in the wrong pigeon hole of basic training and when they fail, we blame the dog. Worst fate is euthanising it because it can't conform. Thats as far as the logic went. We just have more easily swayed people down here to create the laws hence they came through. Prong collars used on a dog come under animal cruelty and can get you charged or I think the fine is now up to $10,000. E collars, technically too you need to be under supervision of a veterinarian or recognised dog trainer (and by recognised the Vic Government only recognises certain groups - Delta, Gentle Modern School of Dog Training etc as ACTUAL dog trainers) So you need supervision from someone who has no idea how to actually use the collar properly in order to train the dog BRILLIANT!

Euthanising a dog because it hasn't been channeled or controlled with the right equipment is not cruelty.

Burning horns off baby ruminants with no anaesthetic and letting them pass out from pain is not cruelty.

Farming dogs on mass with little attention, no proper interaction and no decent life is not cruelty.

How sad, and of course it is only the law abiding people being punished because old Joe Hillbilly is not going to tell anybody that he works his dogs with a welding glove down the back....

No Joe Hillbilly can buy whatever he wants to train the dog.

Constriction means we're losing the ability to understand and rationalise these animals properly. The public NEEDS to see bitework demonstrations as far as I'm concerned to FULLY understand how difficult it is to train some dogs properly and what dedication is required to do it. Potential owners should be playing with trained dogs a bit and see what intensity they can have and how reality is sooooo different from YouTube. Smart arses who think bitework is funny or don't take it seriously need to be put in a suit and let a couple of good hard dogs bite through. The bruises will remind them of the potential consequences of their actions.

[megan_]

Lollipop - what a stunner! I didn't realise it was illegal here, I just thought if you did do bite work then your dog is automatically declared dangerous. How bloody stupid

You are correct

[BlackJaq]

So what is their reason for banning it? I guess they would have similarly harebrained justifications as for bsl....

Because in conjunction with the ideas of the GSDC and ANKC, all bitework is dangerous and encourages aggression towards people and we don't want that we just prefer big working breeds that we try to cram in the wrong pigeon hole of basic training and when they fail, we blame the dog. Worst fate is euthanising it because it can't conform. Thats as far as the logic went. We just have more easily swayed people down here to create the laws hence they came through. Prong collars used on a dog come under animal cruelty and can get you charged or I think the fine is now up to $10,000. E collars, technically too you need to be under supervision of a veterinarian or recognised dog trainer (and by recognised the Vic Government only recognises certain groups - Delta, Gentle Modern School of Dog Training etc as ACTUAL dog trainers) So you need supervision from someone who has no idea how to actually use the collar properly in order to train the dog BRILLIANT!

Euthanising a dog because it hasn't been channeled or controlled with the right equipment is not cruelty.

Burning horns off baby ruminants with no anaesthetic and letting them pass out from pain is not cruelty.

Farming dogs on mass with little attention, no proper interaction and no decent life is not cruelty.

How sad, and of course it is only the law abiding people being punished because old Joe Hillbilly is not going to tell anybody that he works his dogs with a welding glove down the back....

No Joe Hillbilly can buy whatever he wants to train the dog.

Constriction means we're losing the ability to understand and rationalise these animals properly. The public NEEDS to see bitework demonstrations as far as I'm concerned to FULLY understand how difficult it is to train some dogs properly and what dedication is required to do it. Potential owners should be playing with trained dogs a bit and see what intensity they can have and how reality is sooooo different from YouTube. Smart arses who think bitework is funny or don't take it seriously need to be put in a suit and let a couple of good hard dogs bite through. The bruises will remind them of the potential consequences of their actions.

Aye to that, banning it does not delete the knowledge of its existence from everybody's mind. It hadn't really occurred to me what a disaster a poorly chosen dog of bad temperament "trained" by somebody who is not actually knowledgeable could be... And that somebody would not have anything real to compare to either. scary!

[Nekhbet]

It hadn't really occurred to me what a disaster a poorly chosen dog of bad temperament "trained" by somebody who is not actually knowledgeable could be... And that somebody would not have anything real to compare to either. scary!

Try an aussie bulldog trained up who almost damaged a solid timber fence while attached to a steel cable, leather harness and another thick stainless steel correction chain and leather leash. Meanwhile everyone who was involved in the rescue of this dog wasn't coming within 10 meters and one almost ran inside and locked the door. I must admit, terrifying dog with no off switch but at the same time in my eyes I was a bit impressed with the work that went into it. I unfortunately recommended euthanasia as there was no safe, trustworthy person and place to keep this animal and I did not have the money nor the appropriate facilities to house him, register him as a DD (It's up to about $160 a year here) etc.

Youtube videos are one thing, and the unfortunate thing is too many people see crap online and want to emulate it. I mean sure, how hard could it be, whack on some padding and poke the dog enough until it bites you You would not fathom how many people I have had ask me to help them train their dogs for protection - the corker was a guy who already had a ridgie x who was out of contro and he thought the dog was perfect for it! Forget the fact he couldn't control it himself ...

and we wonder why Victoria has dog problems ...

[BlackJaq]

I don't know, if they failed to install an off switch then in my opinion they kind of skipped a very important part of the whole training process. Do you think they did this intentionally with that particular dog? And if so, how would they expect to control that dog themselves?

Personally I have a gundog breed that is sometimes trained in bite work in the country of origin, Germany. I am not knowledgeable enough (yet?) to be able to tell if my particular dog would be suitable or not for bite work but I do hunt with her and she has a very clear on and off setting.

Without the working off setting she would be pretty useless to me as taking her anywhere would be painful, if not impossible.

I very much appreciate the effort that goes into teaching a dog any behaviour reliably but really, if you fail to give the dog the option to live a normal life when not on the job, I find that to be a remarkable fail.