Food Issues, Struvite Crystals And Allergies..

[will_454]

Wil another option might be contacting a canine naturopath like canine vitality http://caninevitality.com.au/

I recently got some stuff off her for Abbey as although her skin is okay at the moment she is still having breakouts which make her miserable.

Thanks for the link I will have a look and send an email through tomorrow.

Hypoallergenic diet didn't do much for Abbey corrected stools but that was about it. What type of mince are you cooking? beef? beef can be an issue for a dog with sensitivities. Try eliminating grains, turkey is good for sensitive dogs and try giving spinach and kale etc..

Honestly I feel your pain I've been trough a fair bit with Abbey in her first 18 months I honestly only now feel like I'm stable with her allergies, mine on the other hand oh my god why is there so much pollen this week I haven't stopped sneezing.

The mince was beef when we tried it, I was thinking if I go to raw I would look at meats such as kangaroo and goat, as I can get my hands on it realtively easy. And spring was in full flight in Adelaide the last few days until now when the rain came in today!

I think you're dealing with a combination of issues that merit careful, professional advice on a way forward. I suspect the answer may not be a simple as a change of diet. Then again, that could be the answer. Who knows?

I'd suggest you try for a phone consult (with your dogs records forwarded) with someone like Dr Barbara Fougere in Sydney. She's a naturopathic vet. I suspect she'd want some blood work done as a start point. Thyroid issues would be something I'd want eliminated from the list.

Just out of interest, what colour is your Frenchie?

Thanks for the details, I know this is more then likely going to be a complicated process and that it is going to take time so I will try and get in touch with her. My biggest thing is firstly sorting out her crystals as she has had bloody urine the two times before when crystals were present, but this time I got on top of it before they got too bad.

Asha is the pied with brindle mask in my avatar/signature images.

[trinabean]

I think you're dealing with a combination of issues that merit careful, professional advice on a way forward. I suspect the answer may not be a simple as a change of diet. Then again, that could be the answer.

Agreed. The itching could be caused by quite a number of factors. It could be environmental or diet-related. Or both. Even though you don't have grass in your yard, allergens like pollens are air-borne. Was the homemade hypoallergenic diet a vet suggestion? Im surprised that beef was suggested, rather than a novel protein. Beef is one of the more likely meats to be problematic, so not a good choice for an elimination diet as far as I'm aware. A dermatologist vet would be my suggestion to deal with the itching, and guide you through an elimination diet if necessary. Funnily enough, my dog was at his itchiest on a prescription 'hypoallergenic' dry food. About 25% of the dogs my vet puts on this prescription food become itchier. He then refers these dogs to a specialist dermatologist for further help.

I can't help with the struvite crystals, but others have offered some good advice.Good luck with your dog Will. Frenchies are beautiful dogs.

[~Anne~]

Most allergies that show with yeast infection are diet related.

I'd be pretty confident that the skin condition is food related. You may also have environmental factors of course. The crystals are usually a whole other ball gam and if liver and kidney diseases have been ruled out then all you can do is manage the condition as many of us do.

Edited September 5, 2013 by ~Anne~

[juice]

I have a dally that forms stones, so has to be on a low purine diet , I feed raw chicken mince and VANS. My vet also suggested adding a teaspoon of bicarb.

Just out of interest, if everything allergy wise cleared up on one of the foods could you go back to that? I assume crystal forming is not life threatening in female dogs as they pass them? would be the lesser of the 2 evils?

I have a BT who get skin allergys, and she is on roo and VANS , and has been fine since I put her this from kibble.

[~Anne~]

I have a dally that forms stones, so has to be on a low purine diet , I feed raw chicken mince and VANS. My vet also suggested adding a teaspoon of bicarb.

Just out of interest, if everything allergy wise cleared up on one of the foods could you go back to that? I assume crystal forming is not life threatening in female dogs as they pass them? would be the lesser of the 2 evils?

I have a BT who get skin allergys, and she is on roo and VANS , and has been fine since I put her this from kibble.

The crystals turn into stones. Olivia, before she came to me, had undergone two operations to remove stones. The largest was the size of a small mandarin.

The stones block the bladder and the smaller ones can actually be passed and cause immense pain or block the urethra.

Crystals should be avoided, the urine kept acidic and at worst neutral, infections treated when they arise and the dog should be encouraged to drink to flush the bladder to stop the crystals collecting up and forming into stones.

There are different types of crystal formation and the information I am giving is specific to struvite crystals.

Edited September 5, 2013 by ~Anne~

[JulesP]

I am going to suggest further testing on the liver too. Did she have a bile test?

My dog had itches and crystals too. Her blood test wasn't too extreme and possibly wouldn't have triggered many alarm bells but the vet had already seen that her liver was strange via an ultrasound.

Is your dog a normal size & weight?

The fact that she was sick on the raw diet is also very suspicious.

[will_454]

I think you're dealing with a combination of issues that merit careful, professional advice on a way forward. I suspect the answer may not be a simple as a change of diet. Then again, that could be the answer.

Agreed. The itching could be caused by quite a number of factors. It could be environmental or diet-related. Or both. Even though you don't have grass in your yard, allergens like pollens are air-borne. Was the homemade hypoallergenic diet a vet suggestion? Im surprised that beef was suggested, rather than a novel protein. Beef is one of the more likely meats to be problematic, so not a good choice for an elimination diet as far as I'm aware. A dermatologist vet would be my suggestion to deal with the itching, and guide you through an elimination diet if necessary. Funnily enough, my dog was at his itchiest on a prescription 'hypoallergenic' dry food. About 25% of the dogs my vet puts on this prescription food become itchier. He then refers these dogs to a specialist dermatologist for further help.

I can't help with the struvite crystals, but others have offered some good advice.Good luck with your dog Will. Frenchies are beautiful dogs.

The Hypo diet was vet suggested, we tried both lamb and beef as she hadn't eaten either of these meats before, or at least before she came to us - it was after this we stumbled on the Hollistic Select and she was quite good on that until she developed the crystals again. Im not sure whether it was the rice that may have caused her the issues with this diet, rather then the meat though.

I have a dally that forms stones, so has to be on a low purine diet , I feed raw chicken mince and VANS. My vet also suggested adding a teaspoon of bicarb.

Just out of interest, if everything allergy wise cleared up on one of the foods could you go back to that? I assume crystal forming is not life threatening in female dogs as they pass them? would be the lesser of the 2 evils?

I have a BT who get skin allergys, and she is on roo and VANS , and has been fine since I put her this from kibble.

Sorry what is VANS diet or what does it stand for? I had a quick google search for it and didn't come up with anything. And as Anne suggested the crystals can be a huge problem if left unattended to, which is why they are really my first priority in sorting them out. She has just finished her bag on RC Urinary S/O, and I am debating whether or not I keep her off of it and pick-up some acidurin tablets from the vet rather then a new bag, so I can start looking into her diet this weekend.

I am going to suggest further testing on the liver too. Did she have a bile test?

My dog had itches and crystals too. Her blood test wasn't too extreme and possibly wouldn't have triggered many alarm bells but the vet had already seen that her liver was strange via an ultrasound.

Is your dog a normal size & weight?

The fact that she was sick on the raw diet is also very suspicious.

As far as I am aware she hasn't had a bile test. She has had urine spinning, dip stick tests, blood tests and stool tests from what I can remember. At her last visit to the vet she was a touch over 11.5kg and the vet was happy with her weight/fat content. Both of our frenchies are of the smaller stature, Ace is around 13kg but that is more to do with their bloodlines.

[~Anne~]

As you already know, it seems you have two distinct issues. Allergy and struvites.

With an elimination diet, the protein source has to be one the dog has definitely never had. With rescues I used goat meat as the one I thought would be novel to most dogs. Roo, beef, lamb and chicken are commonly found in various forms in commercial dog foods. They can also be used to flavour kibbles and so most dogs have possibly come across them in their life. You need a protein that the dogs body has not had before and never had the chance to develop a reaction too.

The idea is to see if the dog stops reacting when on the elimination diet. If it does, you know for sure it was one of the food ingredients setting the reaction off. You reintroduce food types one by one to determine which one. In the dogs I idid it was commonly beef, chicken and one also had dairy issues.

You also add a carb to the diet to add bulk and provide some energy. I chose sweet potato.

Given your dog also develops struvites you will need to add a couple of other things but I am not knowledgeable enough on that area to give advice. Your vet could though. Salt would be one addition and possibly some vit c.

I am lucky that Olivia is fine on Prescriptives CD kibble and we have not had a recurrence of infection or crystals for 4 or 5 years. Her diet, for me, is very easy.

Edited September 5, 2013 by ~Anne~

[will_454]

Thanks Anne

I have booked an appointment with the vet tomorrow to try and start addressing this and discuss the options for food and treatment.

In the meantime I will also send a couple of emails to the names listed above, and I have also found a local naturopathic vet (although it seems from here website she only does online/phone consults):

http://www.animalnaturopath.com.au/

and also a vet who specialises in holistic treatments:

http://www.glenosmondvet.com.au/services.html#Holistic

I think that this will be a good starting point at least.. I have also started looking into suppliers for meat sources that you have mentioned above including the pinned thread for where to buy RAW, also my Dad often goes hunting and brings back goat's which may prove helpful.

[sheena]

Sorry I can't help with any suggestions, but just out of interest....you said you had her on breeder's terms, does this mean that the breeder may want to breed from her in the future & if so, what is the possibilities of her problem being hereditary

[~Anne~]

Thanks Anne

I have booked an appointment with the vet tomorrow to try and start addressing this and discuss the options for food and treatment.

In the meantime I will also send a couple of emails to the names listed above, and I have also found a local naturopathic vet (although it seems from here website she only does online/phone consults):

http://www.animalnaturopath.com.au/

and also a vet who specialises in holistic treatments:

http://www.glenosmondvet.com.au/services.html#Holistic

I think that this will be a good starting point at least.. I have also started looking into suppliers for meat sources that you have mentioned above including the pinned thread for where to buy RAW, also my Dad often goes hunting and brings back goat's which may prove helpful.

Butchers who supply to Islamic communities will have goat meat. It's quite commonly found in many butchers really.

[Xyz]

Sorry I can't help with any suggestions, but just out of interest....you said you had her on breeder's terms, does this mean that the breeder may want to breed from her in the future & if so, what is the possibilities of her problem being hereditary

Agree. I don't think any dog with severe allergies should be considered in a breeding program

[will_454]

Sorry I can't help with any suggestions, but just out of interest....you said you had her on breeder's terms, does this mean that the breeder may want to breed from her in the future & if so, what is the possibilities of her problem being hereditary

Agree. I don't think any dog with severe allergies should be considered in a breeding program

She is on breeders terms, and through discussions with the breeder it is highly unlikely that she will be bred - although as far as we are aware none of her siblings of parents have the same issues. However there haven't been any final decisions made as yet - she was last on heat about 4 months ago and the breeder didn't want to do anything at that stage.

I think she will end up being spayed, and will remain with us.

[trinabean]

As you already know, it seems you have two distinct issues. Allergy and struvites.

With an elimination diet, the protein source has to be one the dog has definitely never had. With rescues I used goat meat as the one I thought would be novel to most dogs. Roo, beef, lamb and chicken are commonly found in various forms in commercial dog foods. They can also be used to flavour kibbles and so most dogs have possibly come across them in their life. You need a protein that the dogs body has not had before and never had the chance to develop a reaction too.

The idea is to see if the dog stops reacting when on the elimination diet. If it does, you know for sure it was one of the food ingredients setting the reaction off. You reintroduce food types one by one to determine which one. In the dogs I idid it was commonly beef, chicken and one also had dairy issues.

You also add a carb to the diet to add bulk and provide some energy. I chose sweet potato.

Given your dog also develops struvites you will need to add a couple of other things but I am not knowledgeable enough on that area to give advice. Your vet could though. Salt would be one addition and possibly some vit c.

I am lucky that Olivia is fine on Prescriptives CD kibble and we have not had a recurrence of infection or crystals for 4 or 5 years. Her diet, for me, is very easy.

Excellent post Anne. You explained the elimination diet much better than me in my late-night post. :)

Sorry I can't help with any suggestions, but just out of interest....you said you had her on breeder's terms, does this mean that the breeder may want to breed from her in the future & if so, what is the possibilities of her problem being hereditary

Agree. I don't think any dog with severe allergies should be considered in a breeding program

I agree. As a pet owner, I have spent thousands of dollars treating allergies and their complications. We make frequent trips to the vet and a dermatologist vet, and have spent many hours preparing various elimination diets too. I only found out relatively recently that my dogs mother was allergic to some foods - and possibly some environmental allergens too. She was still bred from, and I think this is wrong.

Breeders should be breeding away from allergies. I wouldn't wish the heartache and expense on any pet owner. Not to mention the discomfort and decreased quality of life for allergic/atopic dogs.

Edited to add: We were posting at the same time Will_454. I've just seen that you think it is likely she will be speyed. Sounds like the best option. I hope I didn't seem harsh in my above post. :)

Edited September 6, 2013 by trinabean

[will_454]

Not at all - to be honest I completely agree, this seems like the way it will go, although ultimately we have no say in the final decision, but can only advise our breeder based on our experiences over the last year or so.

I'm sure they will make the right decision as Asha is from a quite prominent breeder here in Adelaide with some really good blood lines and stud dogs.

I will suggest the elimination/hypo diet to the vet again (it was out last vet who suggested it not this one) and will see how we go in the morning with the appointment.

[sheena]

Sorry I can't help with any suggestions, but just out of interest....you said you had her on breeder's terms, does this mean that the breeder may want to breed from her in the future & if so, what is the possibilities of her problem being hereditary

Agree. I don't think any dog with severe allergies should be considered in a breeding program

She is on breeders terms, and through discussions with the breeder it is highly unlikely that she will be bred - although as far as we are aware none of her siblings of parents have the same issues. However there haven't been any final decisions made as yet - she was last on heat about 4 months ago and the breeder didn't want to do anything at that stage.

I think she will end up being spayed, and will remain with us.

It may be something that goes further back than just her parents. I just had a look at the price for Frenchies.....$3,500 For that price I would be wanting something almost perfect, especially free form any thing that might be genetic. Lets hope that they decide to have her spayed & that they help you out with any continuing health issues. :)

[will_454]

they definitely aren't cheap, people are often surprised at the cost of them when we are asked - but I can't put a price on these guys and their personalities. I grew up with different kinds of dogs and I can't see myself owning a different breed of dog again.

Like I mentioned before our other 2 year old Ace is pretty much perfect and touch wood the worst problem we have had with him is when he ripped his toe nail off.

Here is a quick happy snap - it always makes me laugh:

Edited September 6, 2013 by will_454

[Rappie]

I just wanted to make a passing comment about struvite crystals...

Struvite crystals are not, in themselves, a symptom of disease. They can certainly be associated with urinary tract disease, but their presence alone is not always a problem. They are a normal feature of well concentrated 'normal' urine and can form in urine that is stored before analysis. In dogs with signs of a urinary tract infection, in association with an increased pH (which is a result of bacterial infection) then you can see struvite crystals and in chronic cases like Anne describes, urinary stones can also form. They can also form in association with other diseases. An investigation for underlying causes is certainly warranted with recurrent urinary tract problems, but they are not directly caused by struvite crystals.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Rappie

[will_454]

Thanks for the comments, that all makes sense. Asha's urine pH was around 8 or 8.5 if I remember correctly when the crystals were at their worse and aggravated her urinary tract to the point where her urine was coming out bloody. I haven't tested the pH this week at all, so I might do that tonight when I get home to see where it is sitting.

The last sample of urine (which prompted the diet change to RC S/O) was taken at the vets and tested immediately after I got the sample from her. Other times I had taken a morning urine sample and was not able to get to the vets until my lunch break where it was refrigerated in between, so the crystals may have developed over this 4-5 hour period.

Edited September 6, 2013 by will_454

[Rappie]

Has she had a urine culture done - that requires a sterile sample of urine collected by cystocentesis (collecting directly from the bladder with a fine gauge needle). That would be indicated while she is having an episode to confirm that it is in fact due to bacterial infection. The high pH is often a reflection of bacterial activity in the urine (which should be sterile) and the pH causes the crystal to precipitate out of the urine. High pH urine will irritate inflamed mucosal tissue in the urinary tract, but unless they are stones they are too tiny to cause abrasions. The blood in urine is from inflammation of the lining of the bladder - from infection, stone, stress etc.