Petal Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Hi, I have a sweet Maltese who is 7years old this month. She is a healthy entire girl - left entire as I have had a dog with spey incontinence previously (doberman). End of July suddenly Bella was dripping urine after she had done a wee. At first I thought it may be because she was in a hurry to come inside (access via doggy door) due to the icy weather and she hadn't quite finished, but it quickly became apparent that she had no control at finishing off after her wee.She doesn't wet the bed in the night and her problem is only after urinating. We took her to the Vet and had her checked for any urinary infection which was clear. We were advised that it was probably hormonal and put on a course of Propalin. Bella has been on a dose of 0.1ml twice a day for a fortnight and as her condition worsened during that time - urine not dripping... now running after a wee, her dosage increased last week to same amount three times a day. Presently her response is erratic - some after wees are dry and then it cant stop! I made her some doggy diapers in which I fit a pad (got a pattern off the net) and as soon as she comes inside I fit one of these, otherwise the house has wee from one end to the other.. thank goodness for hard floor surfaces! Is this the usual results when treating with Propalin intermittent dry and then flooding? I would like to find an alternative to Propalin if at all possible. Not too keen about homonal medication as the Vets approach was 'try it and see' and the dosage advised was very vague as to what was appropriate for Bella specifically. From everything I have read her condition could be 'sphincter muscle weakness' and I was wondering if Bowens or Acupunture treatment would be helpful and if anyone has had experience using these treatments for incontinence. I am located in NE Victoria and am prepared to travel if someone can recommend a good therapist. Also, in my searching I found a holistic animal medicine website that offers a product called HAMPL Better Bladder (Tinkel Bladder Control) in liquid form drops which are applied to the body. Has anyone heard of them or had experience with that product? Your advice appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Warby St vets Wangaratta has a vet visit fortnightly who does chiro and acupuncture. Her name is Christine Gee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 As far as treating with oestregen goes we have had very good results on quite a low shorter term dose and no other ill effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schnauzer Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Has she had an ultrasound for bladder stones? This can make a bitch "dribble" and have frequent urination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petal Posted September 1, 2013 Author Share Posted September 1, 2013 Thankyou very much for the responses so far :) And, no .. an ultrasound has not been recommended by the Vet at two visits to date. Bella doesn't 'frequently urinate', she just doesn't seem to have the consistent ability to shut off her wee as normal - she thinks she is finished, as she comes inside but most times is either dribbling or streaming all over her rear legs. Also she is not drinking copious water as per Cushings disease... had a Malty with that previously, so am familiar with those symptoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Petal it does sound like sphincter weakness but I would also expect her to have trouble holding on and having accidents at other times if that was the case - but could be wrong. Just one thing - you can spend a lot of money second guessing what is going on here and trying different bibs and bobs. Getting a sound diagnosis and working out what is causing this is the most important thing for your girl at this point. And if ultrasound isn't available locally and you're willing to travel then a trip to Albury or Melbourne would be worthwhile and prevent a lot of hitting and missing. One thing I've learnt about continence is that a multi-disciplinary approach is often best - endocrine - internal medicine/neuro/surgical for example - and the place to get these specialties under one roof are the specialist veterinary centres (I'm sure there would be a number of these in Melbourne) or the Vet School at Werribee. IMO find out whats going on here first, before mucking around with anything else. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SchnauzerMax Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 I would suggest keeping a diary particularly of what time she is medicated and what times she is dribbly or dry. You might include what she eats as well. A good internal medicine vet will ask you for this sort of information and it is better to have it written down as you go rather than rely on memory. But I would start with an ultrasound to rule out things like bladder stones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petal Posted September 1, 2013 Author Share Posted September 1, 2013 Petal it does sound like sphincter weakness but I would also expect her to have trouble holding on and having accidents at other times if that was the case - but could be wrong. Just one thing - you can spend a lot of money second guessing what is going on here and trying different bibs and bobs. Getting a sound diagnosis and working out what is causing this is the most important thing for your girl at this point. And if ultrasound isn't available locally and you're willing to travel then a trip to Albury or Melbourne would be worthwhile and prevent a lot of hitting and missing. One thing I've learnt about continence is that a multi-disciplinary approach is often best - endocrine - internal medicine/neuro/surgical for example - and the place to get these specialties under one roof are the specialist veterinary centres (I'm sure there would be a number of these in Melbourne) or the Vet School at Werribee. IMO find out whats going on here first, before mucking around with anything else. Hope that helps. Thankyou for your advice westiemum .. that was my feeling as well that the consulting Vet has taken the view that it is hormonal straight up but Bella's symptoms don't seem to meet all the criteria for age related incontinence, particularly as she is not speyed and has not had pups and this problem has manifested overnight and is not responding as I see it consistently to the medication. Other options were not offered and I really do want to find out what is the reason for the problem. Not knowing how long this medication should start showing improvements and is taking effect if the Vet is on the right track, am I getting the correct response with her incontinence getting worse then the odd dry time is confusing. The Vet did not answer those querys just upped the medication and said each patient is different (obviously.. ) Making the trip to either Albury or Melbourne is fine, getting the right 'specialist' is the question. I was doing some research on the net and one practice I found near Melbourne require a referral which would mean another consult with the current Vet. I see you are in SA. Apart from the suggestion of Christine Gee , vetinarian for Acupuncture treatment in Wangaratta(which I am not sure Acupunture is helpful for incontinence but was interested to know if anyone has used it in such conditions) can anyone suggest a practice in Albury that offers "endocrine - internal medicine/neuro/surgical". Your suggestion of the Vet School I have taken on board ... any particular Vet there that is recommended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petal Posted September 1, 2013 Author Share Posted September 1, 2013 I would suggest keeping a diary particularly of what time she is medicated and what times she is dribbly or dry. You might include what she eats as well. A good internal medicine vet will ask you for this sort of information and it is better to have it written down as you go rather than rely on memory. But I would start with an ultrasound to rule out things like bladder stones. OK.. that is a good point regarding the diary - will start one today :) thanks for that suggestion. All for getting an ultrasound, but feel I may be better going to a different Vet - someone more specialised in these problems to get the ultrasound done and following through from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loving my Oldies Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Good to see your last post as that was my immediate response. CHANGE VETS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SchnauzerMax Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 An internal medicine vet is a specialist who will have ready access to ultrasound and other diagnostic equipment. In any case you need a vet who will consider the whole picture, not just jump to conclusions. So yes, change vet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Petal it does sound like sphincter weakness but I would also expect her to have trouble holding on and having accidents at other times if that was the case - but could be wrong. Just one thing - you can spend a lot of money second guessing what is going on here and trying different bibs and bobs. Getting a sound diagnosis and working out what is causing this is the most important thing for your girl at this point. And if ultrasound isn't available locally and you're willing to travel then a trip to Albury or Melbourne would be worthwhile and prevent a lot of hitting and missing. One thing I've learnt about continence is that a multi-disciplinary approach is often best - endocrine - internal medicine/neuro/surgical for example - and the place to get these specialties under one roof are the specialist veterinary centres (I'm sure there would be a number of these in Melbourne) or the Vet School at Werribee. IMO find out whats going on here first, before mucking around with anything else. Hope that helps. Thankyou for your advice westiemum .. that was my feeling as well that the consulting Vet has taken the view that it is hormonal straight up but Bella's symptoms don't seem to meet all the criteria for age related incontinence, particularly as she is not speyed and has not had pups and this problem has manifested overnight and is not responding as I see it consistently to the medication. Other options were not offered and I really do want to find out what is the reason for the problem. Not knowing how long this medication should start showing improvements and is taking effect if the Vet is on the right track, am I getting the correct response with her incontinence getting worse then the odd dry time is confusing. The Vet did not answer those querys just upped the medication and said each patient is different (obviously.. ) Making the trip to either Albury or Melbourne is fine, getting the right 'specialist' is the question. I was doing some research on the net and one practice I found near Melbourne require a referral which would mean another consult with the current Vet. I see you are in SA. Apart from the suggestion of Christine Gee , vetinarian for Acupuncture treatment in Wangaratta(which I am not sure Acupunture is helpful for incontinence but was interested to know if anyone has used it in such conditions) can anyone suggest a practice in Albury that offers "endocrine - internal medicine/neuro/surgical". Your suggestion of the Vet School I have taken on board ... any particular Vet there that is recommended? The diary idea is an excellent one - I think we sometimes make it hard for our vets by inadvertently not being able to report accurately - with my Andy's epilepsy a diary was invaluable. As to Vet Schools, I worked at the University of Adelaide vet school in an HR role for a while which is what made me think of it. Or you might be closer to Wagga and Charles Sturt? I like the vet schools for this sort of thing as they are usually fairly up-to-date with the latest stuff because of their obligations to their students and they can be a one-stop-shop - and will usually be quite thorough in following things through - and you'll get ultra-sound there as well if none is available locally. But no idea who is where in Victoria - hopefully a Vic DOLer can give you advice - but even so it would be worth some ringing around. After years of trying to save money by trying odd bits and pieces I really believe you are better off getting this diagnosed properly in the first place even if it costs - as it will save you and your dog a lot of stress in the long run. My westie Sarah (now 12) was incontinent occasionally and it really distressed her - she's now on Stilboestrel and is doing very well - much happier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 this problem has manifested overnight and is not responding as I see it consistently to the medication. Just re-reading your post and this jumped out - the suddenness of it and lack of good response to medication can still mean bladder stones or the wrong medication for a UTI. Still think you need to change vets as others have said and get an ultra-sound and maybe a urinalysis from a lab (not a dipstick) - stops all the frustrating guessing and 'try this ' and 'try that'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 I see you are in SA. Apart from the suggestion of Christine Gee , vetinarian for Acupuncture treatment in Wangaratta(which I am not sure Acupunture is helpful for incontinence but was interested to know if anyone has used it in such conditions) can anyone suggest a practice in Albury that offers "endocrine - internal medicine/neuro/surgical". Your suggestion of the Vet School I have taken on board ... any particular Vet there that is recommended? You asked for information about acupuncture in your first post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 I would like to find an alternative to Propalin if at all possible. Not too keen about homonal medication as the Vets approach was 'try it and see' and the dosage advised was very vague as to what was appropriate for Bella specifically. If it stops your dog's incontinence, why wouldn't you be keen on hormonal medication if the reason for the incontinence IS hormonal?? Stilboestrol is one alternative to Propalin and it IS 'try it and see" to get the dose right. Some dogs can take a course for a few months and then not need it for ages. Others need it more often. My 15 year old girl, after starting on an initial dose of one tablet every two days is now dry on one tablet a month. It doesn't work on every bitch so you have to try it and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petal Posted September 1, 2013 Author Share Posted September 1, 2013 I see you are in SA. Apart from the suggestion of Christine Gee , vetinarian for Acupuncture treatment in Wangaratta(which I am not sure Acupunture is helpful for incontinence but was interested to know if anyone has used it in such conditions) can anyone suggest a practice in Albury that offers "endocrine - internal medicine/neuro/surgical". Your suggestion of the Vet School I have taken on board ... any particular Vet there that is recommended? You asked for information about acupuncture in your first post I 'm sorry Rebanne if I sound confused. I did inquire if anyone had experience using Acupunture or Bowen therapy for incontinence and it is good to get that info about a practitioner/vet in my region- much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petal Posted September 1, 2013 Author Share Posted September 1, 2013 I would like to find an alternative to Propalin if at all possible. Not too keen about homonal medication as the Vets approach was 'try it and see' and the dosage advised was very vague as to what was appropriate for Bella specifically. If it stops your dog's incontinence, why wouldn't you be keen on hormonal medication if the reason for the incontinence IS hormonal?? Stilboestrol is one alternative to Propalin and it IS 'try it and see" to get the dose right. Some dogs can take a course for a few months and then not need it for ages. Others need it more often. My 15 year old girl, after starting on an initial dose of one tablet every two days is now dry on one tablet a month. It doesn't work on every bitch so you have to try it and see. I guess - as I am seeing Bellas condition get worse rather than improve since she has been on Propalin- that I dont have a lot of faith in either the diagnosis or the treatment being increased. I have been questioning what way to go next and seeking others experience with problems of this type, and I do feel the advice to get an ultrasound and lab urinary test will allay fears that there might be something nastier lurking and being overlooked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 From everything I have read her condition could be 'sphincter muscle weakness' and I was wondering if Bowens or Acupunture treatment would be helpful and if anyone has had experience using these treatments for incontinence. Just offering my experience with a Bowen therapist with my dogs incontinence. My dog would wee in her sleep in warmer months when she drank more - it appeared she just had no control and no idea she had wet herself when she was laying down. Visited a bowen therapist for just a general going over and mentioned this, and to my surprise she said she could help with that, did her "thing" down there and we haven't had an occurrence, since! This was about 2-3 years ago now. Might not work for every dog as the reasons for incontinence can vary, but just wanted to let you know for our particular problem, Bowen worked absolute wonders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petal Posted September 2, 2013 Author Share Posted September 2, 2013 Thanks for sharing your experience Ruby star. I have made an appointment with a Vet surgery in Albury that does offer both ultrasound and alternitive therapy including Bowen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Great Petal. Hope it all goes well. Will you let us know how you get on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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