Advice Please (please Be Kind)

[Lasareina]

Hi Westiemum - we live together and bought the puppies together but Hunter is very much Mummy's boy and Juno is very much Daddy's girl so he has definitely got equal, if not more say in what happens with her.

I understand that some people may not have a lot of tolerance for "noobs" - it was just a little disappointing that everyone had been so helpful and supportive and then i got that one particular response which had to stick the boot in :p

Thanks Xyz,

I am all for respecting people's knowledge and experience, and I always try to make sure my posts reflect this attitude. That being said, I will say something back if someones feels that common courtesy or tact is not required simply because they are posting on the net... the old adage "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" still stands.

No-one was obliged to reply and give me the benefit of their experience, so I don't think it is unreasonable to ask people to be kind. If they can't do that due to their deeply held convictions, then why bother replying at all.

[bamboo]

Personally I would give the injections urgently and then Spey before the next season. My personal belief is that any abortion must be performed at the earliest possible stage of development of the babies . I understand that in the case of rescues late abortions may still be the ethical choice, but this is not the case here. I also sympathise totally with staff who must euthanise late term and young pups and cannot understand why they should be expected to not feel strongly about the issue.

[Rebanne]

Hi Westiemum - we live together and bought the puppies together but Hunter is very much Mummy's boy and Juno is very much Daddy's girl so he has definitely got equal, if not more say in what happens with her.

I understand that some people may not have a lot of tolerance for "noobs" - it was just a little disappointing that everyone had been so helpful and supportive and then i got that one particular response which had to stick the boot in :p

Thanks Xyz,

I am all for respecting people's knowledge and experience, and I always try to make sure my posts reflect this attitude. That being said, I will say something back if someones feels that common courtesy or tact is not required simply because they are posting on the net... the old adage "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" still stands.

No-one was obliged to reply and give me the benefit of their experience, so I don't think it is unreasonable to ask people to be kind. If they can't do that due to their deeply held convictions, then why bother replying at all.

it was hardly sticking the boot in

[WreckitWhippet]

So who actually owns the bitch ? If you do, then get your act together and get the bitch speyed.

Sounds like you plan on raising the possible litter and you have the hallmarks of one that asks the questions, says you will desex and then pops back a couple of months later with pics of the bundles of joy. At least start to do the right thing and get both of your dogs tested for L2hGA & HC and have them eye tested and book your time off work now. You are going to need the week before and at least the week after the litter is due, with such a young bitch.

If your boyfriend likes to sleep, he can kiss that goodbye as there won't be any for a couple of weeks.

Here's the reality.

You are going to need to be with her 24/7 for the week before she's due and the same afterwards.

Set aside at least $1500 for a C-section, given the size disparity.

You will need a whelping box, a pen to go around it, a quiet room in the house, lots of bedding, towels, tarps if you have carpet, a heat lamp.

The basics of a thermometer, unwaxed dental floss, scissors, haemostats, nutrigel, calcium Sandoz, 5ml syringes.

A decent vet on call.

Set aside another $2000 and maybe more to vac, chip and desex the pups.

Additional money to worm the puppies and feed them on a good diet.

Somewhere in your back yard for them to run and play safely when they are old enough and the keep them separate during the day or when you are unable to directly supervise.

The ability to find them all life long homes and you will be up against every other back yard breeder.

You will need a crash course in canine anatomy and whelping.

[Kirislin]

So who actually owns the bitch ? If you do, then get your act together and get the bitch speyed.

Sounds like you plan on raising the possible litter and you have the hallmarks of one that asks the questions, says you will desex and then pops back a couple of months later with pics of the bundles of joy. At least start to do the right thing and get both of your dogs tested for L2hGA & HC and have them eye tested and book your time off work now. You are going to need the week before and at least the week after the litter is due, with such a young bitch.

If your boyfriend likes to sleep, he can kiss that goodbye as there won't be any for a couple of weeks.

Here's the reality.

You are going to need to be with her 24/7 for the week before she's due and the same afterwards.

Set aside at least $1500 for a C-section, given the size disparity.

You will need a whelping box, a pen to go around it, a quiet room in the house, lots of bedding, towels, tarps if you have carpet, a heat lamp.

The basics of a thermometer, unwaxed dental floss, scissors, haemostats, nutrigel, calcium Sandoz, 5ml syringes.

A decent vet on call.

Set aside another $2000 and maybe more to vac, chip and desex the pups.

Additional money to worm the puppies and feed them on a good diet.

Somewhere in your back yard for them to run and play safely when they are old enough and the keep them separate during the day or when you are unable to directly supervise.

The ability to find them all life long homes and you will be up against every other back yard breeder.

You will need a crash course in canine anatomy and whelping.

Yep.

[minimax]

As soon as someone who is not an experienced, registered breeder mentions anything about having puts they seem to be catergorised as the average bogan who wants puppies to pay for beer money, feeds their dogs chum and leaves them on a chain in the backyard day in and out. My dogs get the best food possible, are fully insured and are taken to the vet at the drop of a hat if anything seem off. Any puppies would receive the same care. I also believe you can have your own details recorded on the microchip along with the new owners so you can be notifed if they ever get into trouble - at which point of course we would step in and take them back. I know the general attitude on this forum is that only registered breeders can be ethical but I personally don't subscribe to that idea.

This is a forum for purebred, registered dogs, and registered breeders. If you want to be a backyard breeder, perhaps this isn't the right place for you.

[Yonjuro]

The OP has made her post based on her concern that there might be a problem with what has occurred. At least she has acknowledged this and is asking quite reasonably for advice. She has determined a couple of pages back that she is going to either abort or spey so why is it that some people feel the need to keep raving on that she is a BYB!?

This is obviously a stressful time for her and the dogs so why not give her the benefit of the doubt that she is trying to do the best now and has taken onboard the helpful information that a few people have given.

[westiemum]

Yes agreed Yonjuro. I think we need to be fair - there is no evidence at the moment that the OP intends to do anything other than abort or spey - and she has clearly said they are leaning towards speying.

If she comes back in a couple of months time with puppy happy snaps wanting more information about raising and homing puppies or we see them listed on those dogs for sale websites or gumtree, or she comes back looking for sympathy having lost Juno during whelping,then we slap both her and her boyfriend - but not now. In fact some of these more unfriendly posts may do more harm than good IMO.

[DesertDobes]

As soon as someone who is not an experienced, registered breeder mentions anything about having puts they seem to be catergorised as the average bogan who wants puppies to pay for beer money, feeds their dogs chum and leaves them on a chain in the backyard day in and out. My dogs get the best food possible, are fully insured and are taken to the vet at the drop of a hat if anything seem off. Any puppies would receive the same care. I also believe you can have your own details recorded on the microchip along with the new owners so you can be notifed if they ever get into trouble - at which point of course we would step in and take them back. I know the general attitude on this forum is that only registered breeders can be ethical but I personally don't subscribe to that idea.

This is a forum for purebred, registered dogs, and registered breeders. If you want to be a backyard breeder, perhaps this isn't the right place for you.

Yes this although hopefully Lasareina has taken her girl to the vet and the issue has been sorted out today. I've definitely made my own mistakes in the pedigree dog world but I wouldn't come onto DOL expecting anything other than advice with the best interest of the dogs at heart even if they don't spare your feelings.

[Andisa]

I believe I answered your question above - The only reason I was considering continue this pregnancy was if it was considered less risky than trying to abort, which I had heard had some severe side affects. Not so we could have puppies to "play with". And yes, if we went ahead with the pregnancy I was prepared to be fully responsible for it including all the costs you mentioned.

As soon as someone who is not an experienced, registered breeder mentions anything about having puts they seem to be catergorised as the average bogan who wants puppies to pay for beer money, feeds their dogs chum and leaves them on a chain in the backyard day in and out. My dogs get the best food possible, are fully insured and are taken to the vet at the drop of a hat if anything seem off. Any puppies would receive the same care. I also believe you can have your own details recorded on the microchip along with the new owners so you can be notifed if they ever get into trouble - at which point of course we would step in and take them back. I know the general attitude on this forum is that only registered breeders can be ethical but I personally don't subscribe to that idea.

This is beside the point however as it had already been determined earlier in the thread that it would be less risky to abort, and this is what we have decided to do. We are now just deciding whether to give the injection or spey.

I know a lot of you have been saying just hit the bf over the head and spey, but in reality, Juno is more his dog than mine. Also, I think pet owners are allowed to have different opinions, even if not in agreement with the prevailing opinion on this forum. He may decide that speying is the best option, or he may not... he is also a caring, responsible pet owner who is aware of the inherent risks (and costs)of breeding so I don't think forcing my, or others, opinion is appropriate. I will make my opinion known however ;)

Thanks for all the helpful comments.

The most responsible thing you can do for this bitch is to prevent the pregnancy progressing. She is ONLY 9 MONTHS OLD - the male is a large dog and you have no idea what they may or may not be carriers of.

You have missed weeks of obvious signs of a bitch coming in season and being in season - you also missed the signs of a dog who would be aware of a bitch coming into and in season...just how many other things will you miss. So many things can and do go wrong - you are simply not ready for this now..

The most frustrating part in the thread is how anyone would allow a baby to have babies - this bitch is just a baby - protect her her and do the most responsible act of all is to prevent her body going through more than necessary.

It's nice to say you will be responsible for the puppies later down the track but what about starting with being responsible for the underage bitch first..

[Rebanne]

The most responsible thing you can do for this bitch is to prevent the pregnancy progressing. She is ONLY 9 MONTHS OLD - the male is a large dog and you have no idea what they may or may not be carriers of.

You have missed weeks of obvious signs of a bitch coming in season and being in season - you also missed the signs of a dog who would be aware of a bitch coming into and in season...just how many other things will you miss. So many things can and do go wrong - you are simply not ready for this now..

The most frustrating part in the thread is how anyone would allow a baby to have babies - this bitch is just a baby - protect her her and do the most responsible act of all is to prevent her body going through more than necessary.

It's nice to say you will be responsible for the puppies later down the track but what about starting with being responsible for the underage bitch first..

fell at the very first hurdle comes to mind actually.

[pie]

I thought WreckitWhippet's first post was very civil, educational and honest - especially given her experience with SBTs - I didn't think it was sticking the boot in at all - merely telling the most likely scenario going on (extensive) past experience. Your response back was quite rude though.

Putting aside the age of your girl, the health testing is a very important issue that shouldn't be skirted around.

You can't ask people to be gentle, then receive civil responses, then be rude in return and not expect people to retaliate.

Good luck with your dogs no matter which path you choose :)

[RuralPug]

The most responsible thing you can do for this bitch is to prevent the pregnancy progressing. She is ONLY 9 MONTHS OLD - the male is a large dog and you have no idea what they may or may not be carriers of.

You have missed weeks of obvious signs of a bitch coming in season and being in season - you also missed the signs of a dog who would be aware of a bitch coming into and in season...just how many other things will you miss. So many things can and do go wrong - you are simply not ready for this now..

The most frustrating part in the thread is how anyone would allow a baby to have babies - this bitch is just a baby - protect her her and do the most responsible act of all is to prevent her body going through more than necessary.

It's nice to say you will be responsible for the puppies later down the track but what about starting with being responsible for the underage bitch first..

Andisa you have missed more than the OP I think. Go back and read the first post - carefully. They did not miss the signs of the bitch being in season. They were not considering a litter until the bitch was over 2 years old and were not sure that she would ever be big enough to use their dog on. The ONLY reason they would have considered letting the pregnancy go ahead was if the abort would be riskier than carrying to term. So they came in here to ask if the abort would be more stressful. Simple advice without judgement, which is what was requested, is mostly what they got until the last few pages.

I do applaud your passion and share your values, but when passionate people don't read the question properly they won't get listened to...you catch more flies with honey and vinegar. People are not going to listen to those who don't listen to them and can you blame them?

This is not only directed at you Andisa - there are others who do not appear to have carefully read the original post either.

[persephone]

They did not miss the signs of the bitch being in season. They were not considering a litter until the bitch was over 2 years old and were not sure that she would ever be big enough to use their dog on. The ONLY reason they would have considered letting the pregnancy go ahead was if the abort would be riskier than carrying to term. So they came in here to ask if the abort would be more stressful. Simple advice without judgement, which is what was requested, is mostly what they got until the last few pages.

Yes.

[Andisa]

My mistake and I should have waited to reply when I had more time to read it properly.

I may have misjudged the OP, if so I am sorry but I am not sorry for saying the puppy bitch should not be allowed to continue with a pregnancy. If they do then I suppose we have a different view on responsibility.

[Salukifan]

Abort the litter or spay the bitch. She's not fully mature and pups shouldn't have pups. End of story.

That's all the advice that's needed and it has been given.

Time for the OP to step up and do right by the bitch. Wreckit has painted an accurate picture of what's needed to whelp and raise a litter of SBT pups. I gather young SBT bitches killing and eating pups is not uncommon.

It's not when everything is going well that you get to test your mettle as a responsible dog owner. It's when something like this happens and accidents DO happen. Its up to the OP now.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[WreckitWhippet]

Abort the litter or spay the bitch. She's not fully mature and pups shouldn't have pups. End of story.

That's all the advice that's needed and it has been given.

Time for the OP to step up and do right by the bitch. Wreckit has painted an accurate picture of what's needed to whelp and raise a litter of SBT pups. I gather young SBT bitches killing and eating pups is not uncommon.

It's not when everything is going well that you get to test your mettle as a responsible dog owner. It's when something like this happens and accidents DO happen. Its up to the OP now.

It could be age related, I've certainly seen it in younger bitches and it could also be some kind of natural instinct that kicks in if they whelp and do not feel safe and secure.

The OP needs to also be aware that Hare lips and cleft palates are also common birth defects in the breed and be prepared that they may have to euth pups very early on.

[Lasareina]

I thought WreckitWhippet's first post was very civil, educational and honest - especially given her experience with SBTs - I didn't think it was sticking the boot in at all - merely telling the most likely scenario going on (extensive) past experience. Your response back was quite rude though.

Putting aside the age of your girl, the health testing is a very important issue that shouldn't be skirted around.

You can't ask people to be gentle, then receive civil responses, then be rude in return and not expect people to retaliate.

Good luck with your dogs no matter which path you choose :)

Yes, when I read it again you are right. I think it was just that last line, and I must have been feeling overly sensitive. "Sticking the boot in" was definitely the wrong phrase to use when replying.

For those interested in costs, I spoke to the vet and got these following prices:

Alizin injection:

initial consult: $60

First injection: $200

Second injection: $200 (24 hours later)

Desex Juno: $ 249

Desex Hunter: $199

It looks like I may have got bf over the line on desexing. Will let you know how we go.

[persephone]

It looks like I may have got bf over the line on desexing. Will let you know how we go.

*a cautious *

Hitting his hip pocket may help ;) Also the fact that when walking Hunter if he is castrated *oops, wrong word to use around human males* there is not that testosterone cloud surrounding him ..notifying all & sundry of his presence ;) ..and , for Juno ...the local entire dogs won't all be frantically wondering where that in season bitch is hiding ;)

[Lasareina]

Juno is booked in for desex tomorrow. I'm relieved - last thing I would ever want was for something to happen to her.

Re desexing Hunter - we probably won't do this right now (we have had $6000 ish of unexpected expenses this month, so perfect timing as always ) but i think it is likely we will get him done fairly soon as well. We had his first instance of "dominant behaviour" if that's what you would call it, at the park the other day where he pinned a young pup and growled at him . He has always been such a sook (he's usually the one on his back at the park) so this came as a bit of a surprise. He came off the pup when we called him away and didn't snap at him or anything but that was enough for me. I like him as a softie, not a macho man.