Blackdogs Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 My sister's JRT X was like this as a pup. No eye contact, not wanting to be touched, not responsive to any human interaction. She is now 9 and a bundle of nerves. She can't cope with any type of change and can be very fearful of dogs and people. She will often urinate in fear if you go to pet her and she's never had a hand raised to her. The behaviour is just intensifying with age and I may have finally convinced my sister to try her on medication. I am sure if we'd known what she was going to be like we would have returned her without question. Aside from the trials she's caused the family, she's a deeply unhappy dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 When my brother was buying a Lab we went and brought one off a very reputable breeder. Met the dam, lovely bitch and was quite impressed by the quality of the puppies so we picked one and toddled off home. My brother was away the weekend the puppy come home so I was in sole charge of the 8 week old baby and it become very obvious that it was quite an aggressive puppy. Over the course of the weekend it bit me several times normally over food and was quite a sharp puppy so I decided to return the puppy. That puppy and several of its littermates went on to have a lifetime of aggression issues which resulted in pts. really the breeder shoudl have manned up and had them pts as babies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 When my brother was buying a Lab we went and brought one off a very reputable breeder. Met the dam, lovely bitch and was quite impressed by the quality of the puppies so we picked one and toddled off home. My brother was away the weekend the puppy come home so I was in sole charge of the 8 week old baby and it become very obvious that it was quite an aggressive puppy. Over the course of the weekend it bit me several times normally over food and was quite a sharp puppy so I decided to return the puppy. That puppy and several of its littermates went on to have a lifetime of aggression issues which resulted in pts. really the breeder shoudl have manned up and had them pts as babies your story reminded me that we had a Lab when I was a small child that was very aggressive, not that I remember. What I remember is driving out to the country to a home that had labs and we took home a black one. My parents ran a milk bar and as was custom back then the dog was often loose. I came home from school one day to be told the dog had gone, I was devastated and cried for days. Years late my parents told me how Sooty used to bail up all the non anglo saxon looking people out the front of the shop. He was given to a truck driver who declared he was the best watch dog he had ever had, could leave his truck unlocked anywhere. I'd forgotten about Sooty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 I'll never forget a few years ago when I went to have a look at a litter of kelpie puppies and the owner (nice lady) reached in to pat one of the puppies and a puppy next to it just savaged her hand at 7 weeks old. Blood all over her hand. She said he had done it before but to her foot and not as bad. Some dogs are just genetically wrong. This particular puppy was not put down but sold to an old farmer who is producing kelpies with aggressive temperaments by using him as a stud dog. I've never met puppies like them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted August 30, 2013 Author Share Posted August 30, 2013 Would it be correct to sum up by saying behavioral problems that have to do with timidity and avoidance of people MAY correct naturally with change of environment (eg, getting away from bullying siblings) but may also be deeply programmed, and bad enough to warrant pts. However aggressive babies are bad news and should be culled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 As racing greyhounds generally aren't bred for temperament, I sometimes get to see the results of such dogs and frankly, if I were a breeder, I'd probably cull. Some of the dogs we've had here have been very unhappy dogs- unable to cope with being around other dogs, unfamiliar sights/sounds/smells, open spaces, food aggressive, etc. Some of those problems can be fixed (although it's a lot of work and often one step forward, several steps back) but for others, they will never be able to live normal lives. We actually have one at the moment and it's heartbreaking to see. When loose with the other dogs, she spent her time hiding from them so she was separated to see if that would make her feel a bit safer and hopefully bring her out of her shell. The outcome was even worse- she began to show serious fear aggression whenever she was able to see them and if they tred to approach her, she would lunge, snarling at them. She lacks any confidence around people, usually only approaching from behind and even then, just jumping up and then bolting away again. Attempts at counter-conditioning and building positive associations have failed. I'm sure the eventual outcome will be that she needs to be PTS (could never rehome her) but that's easier said than done, I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 maddy , yes, it's sad - however I always like to think that I am giving their spirits a release from the unhappiness and pain and fear ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Yes persephone, I agree. It is sad but even with my girl at times when she is having a bad day, her anxiety levels are through the roof & she is beside herself with fear I sometimes feel I should give Stella her wings so she can have some peace I am not a breeder nor do I ever wish to be but IMHO I believe that if there is major concerns with a pups temp at 8 weeks of age the kindest thing is to pts for all concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 maddy , yes, it's sad - however I always like to think that I am giving their spirits a release from the unhappiness and pain and fear ... Oh, I agree there entirely. It's just human selfishness and pride that makes it so hard. Having to admit you cannot help the dog is difficult enough, let alone when you've become attached to the dog, adding that extra bit of guilt in that you've failed a dog you cared about. I imagine the same would apply to breeders, they put so much time and energy into the litter that letting go of one for those reasons would be very hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 We've done it here , with pups kept to see if they 'grow out of it'..... not at all pleasant , but ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trisven13 Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 We had a litter of pups come through rescue many years ago - mother was an ACD with a stellar temperament. A large number of her pups were very timid and avoided contact. I was relatively naive and inexperienced at the time and we rehomed the litter - all the ones that had been very shy and avoided contact were put to sleep with major temperament issues before 12 months of age. They were dog and human aggressive. A number of the pups were delightful like their mother but sadly they were in the minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 A lot of people would be shocked to hear how often rescues have to euthanaise pups/dogs they take into care... not all rescues believe in rehoming everything with a pulse regardless of any issues. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 not all rescues believe in rehoming everything with a pulse regardless of any issues. Thank goodness for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 not all rescues believe in rehoming everything with a pulse regardless of any issues. Thank goodness for that. Same goes for things like prey drive- I tested one dog this week who couldn't even be brought into the testing area because he saw the small dog through the gate and reacted with the most intense drive I have ever seen. There is no way the average owner could control a dog like that yet some groups insist on rehoming them :/ Temperament is a lot like prey drive- you can manage issues but you can't change what the dog is. When it comes to selling dogs (be it adults or pups from a breeder), selling dogs that will require lifelong management just to get by is not fair on either the dog or the new owner. Owning a dog involves certain responsibilities but it shouldn't be a life-altering burden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I am not a breeder, but if the faults were serious I would cull. I definitely wouldn't sell at a discounted price - a dog is either a suitable pet or not. Yep I agree - not to mention all the hard work you would otherwise have put into the pup/ dog If I was a breeder and this happened I would keep the puppy and see how it went as it grew. I would never just kill it on the off chance there might be issues. agreed I bought one of those pups, knowing what she was like. I put her down at 20 months old. Problem is those pups are often ok with the breeder, amongst their family. I was a fool to take her, I could see what she was like, but really didn't have any idea just how much it would impact on her quality of life. Based on my experience and the heartbreak we both went through, if I bred one like that and could see it, I would PTS. Temperament issues, especially anxiety that manifests in severe separation anxiety, reactivity and nervous problems can be as much or more of an impost on a puppy owner than a dog who has a bad parrot mouth or some other issue that people would PTS for without question. It's with you every day, with the weather forecast (are we getting storms), on walks (will they go batshit at the car/bike/other dog), when you want to go out (are they going to shred up the carpet or rip out their teeth/claws on the doorframe in terror) - and if you take them with you will they cope in the car? Sure, it's not all going to be that dire, and to an extent it can be managed with training and socialisation, but the difference between an easy dog with solid temperament and one with hard-wired issues is a major difference. It affects so many things that owners can and cannot do. It's also a reason why dogs bounce out of homes into the unwanted dog streams. Finally, it's crap for the dog too - imagine what it must be like to live with that kind of anxiety and/or stress? So I would never criticise someone for electing to PTS for temperament. Better to do it young and before the pup is in someone's home to become a source of heartbreak for them as well. As a breeder and as a pet owner etc. Depends on the situation. I think 8 weeks is too early to tell, so I don't think I would cull at 8 weeks. Not unless there are serious concerns. I've seen issues that have been apparent at 8-12wks old and by 12-16wks it's apparent that the dog is merely going to 'grow into' these problems. I would treat a temperament fault probably stronger than a health problem. A family managing a health concern (with full disclosure) is not necissarily putting the community at risk. A dog with CEA may be culled and nobody questions, yet if we have a serious behavioural issue, then you may get questioned all the time. Honestly - I would hold onto the pup do some training and assessment and see how I felt down the track. I don't want to pass a pup onto someone if I was not certain on the temperament. If I felt then it needed a special home, I have more information about said dog as a 6mth or 12mth old dog. If I felt it couldn't be worked with, I think you *know* by around 6-12 mths and if that was the case, then nobody but me has to deal with the decision of euthanasia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 A dog with CEA may be culled and nobody questions, yet if we have a serious behavioural issue, then you may get questioned all the time. Seriously? Aussie people cull for CEA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapua Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 (edited) I have seen more pups display a cluster of anxiety or avoidance behaviours due to environmental circumstances rather than being neurologically hard wired this way. If I suspect a pup is hard wired to behave in away that will compromise the dog's quality of life I will defintely cull them. However selecting certain desirable behaviours is as deliberate as selecting for conformation. However I still think many breeders do not have the skill to recognise appropriate an desiable behavioural traits and will not cull or remove from their beeding progam the ones that are poorest. I actively prioritise retrieval ability in my breeding program and it have taken 6 years before I found and bought a stud puppy I consider is conformationlly suitable and displays the retrieval skills I maintain in my bitches. This is Kupa - 10 weeks old doing a full retrieval under gunfire. Edited August 30, 2013 by Tapua Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph M Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 http://nodogaboutit.wordpress.com/?s=bad+breeders I was reading this today and it reminded me of this thread. What a heartbreaking decision for all involved, if all avenues were exhausted I would like to think PTS would be kinder on animal, breeder and potential owner than such a life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Hard to tell from the original post, but I've had a dog with serious aggression issues from a very young age and while we worked through them he was PTS for health issues in the end. From that experience I'd far rather a breeder cull (easy to say, I know) than pass on dogs that are not fit for a pet home. One of my dogs needs management around others, but there is a big difference between a dog that needs a little looking after and one that is just a nightmare to live with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casowner Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I had a bloodhound pup who was reactive, HA and a severe resource guarder by 5 months of age 2 vets refused to handle her I wanted to pts even though I had to take out a personal loan to buy her. At 9 weeks she would launch at your face for no reason and meant it. The breeder asked me to give her to another breeder in my state and he would replace the puppy, which never happened. I never gave back her papers and I am sure the local breeder would have desexed her anyway. In future I would pts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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