I'm Becoming Afraid To Walk My Dogs

[LisaCC]

All the people that pissed me off last weekend had their dogs on lead.

Would rather walk past a polite in control off lead walker than a rude, out of control on lead walker.

Agree with this. Most dogs that have lunged at me have been on lead. I'd rather come across an in control dog off lead than an on lead out of control dog.

[RazorBlade]

Because my dog is with me 24hours a days 7 days a week and I can't always be in an off lead area.

My dog won't come anywhere near your dog.

You are starting to sound and behave like a troll.

You are publicly stating you break the law and in fact you don't care about doing this.

I hope you get caught and fined.

What I also know is that no matter what you say here, I know you don't give a crap about your dog because, guess what, your dog will pay the price if anything goes wrong.

If someone has a different opinion to you and they voice that opinion then that automatically makes them a troll?

Accuses someone of being a troll and the goes on to make a statement that is deliberately inflammatory in an attempt to illicit an emotional response. Well done, I'm actually impressed my your level of double standard.

[Staffyluv]

Aussie is right - this thread is going around in circles.

Totally bomb proof dogs are out there, they stay by the side of their owners no matter what..

I would rather walk by one of these dogs than one that is a complete lunatic on leash.. I know what it is like to have a reactive dog on lead - it has taken months and months of work to get him to the stage where he can walk around the park, without reacting to every dog he sees.. He is happy reactive, he wants to see the other dogs and is submissive as well but at 27kg of bull breed, he could be a nightmare on lead if he wanted to.

Lucky for me, with loads of great advice, training and persistence, I can now walk him without these problems.

I am very lucky, some people never get the resolution I have with Ziggy. A lot of reactive dogs are not submissive or friendly - they simply don't like other dogs in their space and as dog owners, we have to respect each other and what we all want for our dogs.

There are many people who live with dogs like this every single day - they want to walk them in a on leash area, without the threat of unknown dogs coming at them.

If your dog is totally bomb proof, personally I have no issue with you walking it off lead. But if you or your dogs attention lapses, I am sure you will understand when I kick your dog away, that I have spent so much time and energy 'fixing' my dogs issues and I don't want them undone.

As for the off lead thing being illegal, well realistically there are loads of people doing stuff that isn't legal or moral every day - in the grand scheme of life on earth an off lead dog (in control) is hardly an issue..

The off lead dogs that are aggressive are a different issue and that is the OPs original gripe (not off lead dogs that are in total control)..

There is plenty we can do but if a dog is intent on attacking your dog and it outweighs you, then you are in trouble. The same goes for dogs in packs - if they decide to attack, you are in trouble.

Find areas that you can walk with a good view all around.

Go at different times to find the best time with the fewest irresponsible owners and loose dogs.

Drive to the places, so you car is only ever a few minutes walk away from where you are.

Check out houses around the area and know the ones that have dogs - if you need sanctuary against offending dogs, knowing what yards you can enter on your walk helps heaps.

Carry an umbrella with a pointed end, if opening it in the face of a dog doesn't deter them, then sure are sh*t the pointed end will do some damage in a scuffle.

Lastly, there will always be irresponsible people - there is nothing we can do about others (other than report them at every opportunity) but we can look out for ourselves.

For the next person to tell they shouldn't have to watch out for roaming dogs, guess what - you should and you do have to..

There will always be others who don't care what you want, they don't care about the laws.. Respect and manners are long gone in today's society.

So for you and your dogs to take the safest walk, take some or all of so many great suggestions posted in 32 pages and give it a shot.. You may have to go a town or suburb over to find a nice place to walk, where it is peaceful enough for you to enjoy your walk.

[Loving my Oldies]

All the people that pissed me off last weekend had their dogs on lead.

Would rather walk past a polite in control off lead walker than a rude, out of control on lead walker.

Agree with this. Most dogs that have lunged at me have been on lead. I'd rather come across an in control dog off lead than an on lead out of control dog.

They are probably just desperate to be a dog and say hello and constantly being pulled back makes them think there is something very wrong going on and they need to do something about it.

Because of the way we live, people think a dog on a lead is a natural thing. It isn't, so the dogs pay for it in terms of lack of training and, hence, understanding. How many times has anyone here heard, "My dog is hopeless on a lead."?

People again.

We can't blame the dogs all the time.

And then, of course, there are those who have been very evident in this thread who think laws don't apply to them because they and their dogs are perfect

[RazorBlade]

Aussie is right - this thread is going around in circles.

Totally bomb proof dogs are out there, they stay by the side of their owners no matter what..

I would rather walk by one of these dogs than one that is a complete lunatic on leash.. I know what it is like to have a reactive dog on lead - it has taken months and months of work to get him to the stage where he can walk around the park, without reacting to every dog he sees.. He is happy reactive, he wants to see the other dogs and is submissive as well but at 27kg of bull breed, he could be a nightmare on lead if he wanted to.

Lucky for me, with loads of great advice, training and persistence, I can now walk him without these problems.

I am very lucky, some people never get the resolution I have with Ziggy. A lot of reactive dogs are not submissive or friendly - they simply don't like other dogs in their space and as dog owners, we have to respect each other and what we all want for our dogs.

There are many people who live with dogs like this every single day - they want to walk them in a on leash area, without the threat of unknown dogs coming at them.

If your dog is totally bomb proof, personally I have no issue with you walking it off lead. But if you or your dogs attention lapses, I am sure you will understand when I kick your dog away, that I have spent so much time and energy 'fixing' my dogs issues and I don't want them undone.

As for the off lead thing being illegal, well realistically there are loads of people doing stuff that isn't legal or moral every day - in the grand scheme of life on earth an off lead dog (in control) is hardly an issue..

The off lead dogs that are aggressive are a different issue and that is the OPs original gripe (not off lead dogs that are in total control)..

There is plenty we can do but if a dog is intent on attacking your dog and it outweighs you, then you are in trouble. The same goes for dogs in packs - if they decide to attack, you are in trouble.

Find areas that you can walk with a good view all around.

Go at different times to find the best time with the fewest irresponsible owners and loose dogs.

Drive to the places, so you car is only ever a few minutes walk away from where you are.

Check out houses around the area and know the ones that have dogs - if you need sanctuary against offending dogs, knowing what yards you can enter on your walk helps heaps.

Carry an umbrella with a pointed end, if opening it in the face of a dog doesn't deter them, then sure are sh*t the pointed end will do some damage in a scuffle.

Lastly, there will always be irresponsible people - there is nothing we can do about others (other than report them at every opportunity) but we can look out for ourselves.

For the next person to tell they shouldn't have to watch out for roaming dogs, guess what - you should and you do have to..

There will always be others who don't care what you want, they don't care about the laws.. Respect and manners are long gone in today's society.

So for you and your dogs to take the safest walk, take some or all of so many great suggestions posted in 32 pages and give it a shot.. You may have to go a town or suburb over to find a nice place to walk, where it is peaceful enough for you to enjoy your walk.

Quoted because its brilliant and I couldn't agree more.

[Rocketeer]

All the people that pissed me off last weekend had their dogs on lead.

Would rather walk past a polite in control off lead walker than a rude, out of control on lead walker.

Now what about if those 'out of control' dogs were off-lead?

[Rocketeer]

This thread is going round in circles and is getting TIRING.

We have discussed the things we can do to prevent and minimise incidents with off-lead dogs.

I don't think yelling at people over the internet will make them put their dogs on-lead.

We can't control what others do.

So what have we come up with so far, things that we can do:

- dog repellant spray

- whistle

- hypersonic dog repeller

- Report menacing off-lead dogs

- Have phone numbers handy; Ranger and Local Cop station

- Takes photos of dogs/owner for evidence

- Take a stick with you

- Choose safer areas to walk

[Steph M]

If the approaching dog appeared friendly, I am happy for it to say hello and then go on our way (I realise not everyone is happy for a strange dog to say hi to theirs, so see above suggestion, shoo it away with a growly get lost)..

This sounds totally different to this

I'd like to reiterate for your benefit Steph, that any dog that comes at me and mine at speed for whatever reason, must accept whatever I feel like doling out, a kick, citronella spray, a clout from my handbag, I will never ever in my life again put myself in the position of having to extricate my little dog from a massive dogs mouth if I can prevent that dog getting to us first.

Not every big dog wants to eat Fluffy. It really is all about the big dogs being demonised and it isn't your defence I have a problem with, a swift kick should be enough but in the latter instance where you've assessed the situation and feel it's GENUINELY required, not as in the latter because a big lolloping playing dog runs at you wagging its whole back end.

Genuine question though, do any of you not feel that lashing out at dogs who are off lead, although shouldn't be, might create reactivity if you do it enough? That big lab x who just wants to sniff and can get out of his owners gates gets enough kicks and it could well fulfill your prophecy of doom and gloom?

It's just all so contradictory and depressing, with one member saying they wished they had a gun for roaming dogs and in another post saying how hard it is to see dogs killed on the road, that is a huge leap there.

I was totally on board with this thread to start with, and we can all relate but people are letting this fear run and ruin their lives and the lives of others. There are so many posts on here declaring their dogs bomb proof, but then going on to say they wouldn't stand for any dog, friendly or none approaching you. This sounds like something I would be seriously thinking about rectifying. Incredibly stressful and damning.

And for the record I said the actions were all kinds of crazy, which I stick by.

I'd like to let everyone know that I would never strike a dog or hurt it in anyway unless I was sure it was committed to hurting me, my dog or anyone I had with me.

Again, hugely contradictory.

[mita]

Totally bomb proof dogs are out there, they stay by the side of their owners no matter what..

And those unleashed dogs & their owners are strangers to other dogs & owners approaching. There's no bubble floating in the air with the voice of God coming out, saying.... 'This is a totally bomb proof dog that stays by the owner's side, no matter what.'.

But even God knows that the one thing which is predictable about the future, is that it is unpredictable.

I don't mean to be rude. But people with this attitude believe that what goes on their own heads rules the world. It even has a name, ego-centricity.

A dog owner with leashed dog, who see another person & dog approaching ... bleedingly obvious not on a lead. And made rightly cautious by previous bad experiences .... has a normal stress response, as body goes into alert for fight or flight.

So a problem exists

. First rule of problem solving.... who has the means to prevent or solve it?

Answer, in this case, the person who only has to snap on a lead, when out in public with their dog. And pssssh! to stuff about dogs still being able to lunge. It wasn't a lunging dog on a lead that gave such horrific experiences to those of us whose dogs have been attacked when being walked in public places. Shouldn't even be debatable as it tends to be a council by-law in most areas.

In areas where it isn't a council by-law, then it becomes a case of Russian roulette to walk your dog. And it's up to individual dog owners to calculate risk. For me, it's a no go.... far too likely to meet some with an ego-centric view on containing their dog in a public place.

Edited September 16, 2013 by mita

[Dame Aussie]

If the approaching dog appeared friendly, I am happy for it to say hello and then go on our way (I realise not everyone is happy for a strange dog to say hi to theirs, so see above suggestion, shoo it away with a growly get lost)..

This sounds totally different to this

I'd like to reiterate for your benefit Steph, that any dog that comes at me and mine at speed for whatever reason, must accept whatever I feel like doling out, a kick, citronella spray, a clout from my handbag, I will never ever in my life again put myself in the position of having to extricate my little dog from a massive dogs mouth if I can prevent that dog getting to us first.

Not every big dog wants to eat Fluffy. It really is all about the big dogs being demonised and it isn't your defence I have a problem with, a swift kick should be enough but in the latter instance where you've assessed the situation and feel it's GENUINELY required, not as in the latter because a big lolloping playing dog runs at you wagging its whole back end.

Genuine question though, do any of you not feel that lashing out at dogs who are off lead, although shouldn't be, might create reactivity if you do it enough? That big lab x who just wants to sniff and can get out of his owners gates gets enough kicks and it could well fulfill your prophecy of doom and gloom?

It's just all so contradictory and depressing, with one member saying they wished they had a gun for roaming dogs and in another post saying how hard it is to see dogs killed on the road, that is a huge leap there.

I was totally on board with this thread to start with, and we can all relate but people are letting this fear run and ruin their lives and the lives of others. There are so many posts on here declaring their dogs bomb proof, but then going on to say they wouldn't stand for any dog, friendly or none approaching you. This sounds like something I would be seriously thinking about rectifying. Incredibly stressful and damning.

And for the record I said the actions were all kinds of crazy, which I stick by.

I'd like to let everyone know that I would never strike a dog or hurt it in anyway unless I was sure it was committed to hurting me, my dog or anyone I had with me.

Again, hugely contradictory.

People better just hope their friendly dog doesn't gallop up to a non friendly dog.

[Are You Serious Jo]

This is just going around in circles.

For all those who seem to have issues with their comprehension.

PUT YOUR F***ING DOG ON A LEAD.

Noone gives a toss about your "bond" and news flash: people can't read your mind and know your dog is "bombproof".

Ummmm....... No.

So even though your actions could lead to dogs being banned altogether because of owners breaking the law you don't care? It's not just rushing at other dogs, it's the whole I'll do what i want attitude that affects us all.

[Staffyluv]

Totally bomb proof dogs are out there, they stay by the side of their owners no matter what..

And those unleashed dogs & their owners are strangers to other dogs & owners approaching. There's no bubble floating in the air with the voice of God coming out, saying.... 'This is a totally bomb proof dog that stays by the owner's side, no matter what.'.

But even God knows that the one thing which is predictable about the future, is that it is unpredictable.

I don't mean to be rude. But people with this attitude believe that what goes on their own heads rules the world. It even has a name, ego-centricity.

A dog owner with leashed dog, who see another person & dog approaching ... bleedingly obvious not on a lead. And made rightly cautious by previous bad experiences .... has a normal stress response, as body goes into alert for fight or flight.

So a problem exists

. First rule of problem solving.... who has the means to prevent or solve it?

Answer, in this case, the person who only has to snap on a lead, when out in public with their dog. And pssssh! to stuff about dogs still being able to lunge. It wasn't a lunging dog on a lead that gave such horrific experiences to those of us whose dogs have been attacked when being walked in public places. Shouldn't even be debatable as it tends to be a council by-law in most areas.

In areas where it isn't a council by-law, then it becomes a case of Russian roulette to walk your dog. And it's up to individual dog owners to calculate risk. For me, it's a no go.... far too likely to meet some with an ego-centric view on containing their dog in a public place.

Again, I am not disagreeing with you but what so many in this thread fail to realise is that there will never be a safe place to walk their dogs because not everyone respects the law or is morally obliged to do the right thing.

You have to accept that you can neither prevent nor solve people who let their dogs run amok - they don't care what you think or want..

I don't understand the issue with walking past an off lead dog that is well trained and doesn't approach your dog - why is that a problem?

It isn't doing anything to you or your dog - in fact a dog that well trained is probably so interested in its owner that it doesn't even see you and your dog.. Just because you have an issues with something, doesn't mean it is a problem..

I have issues with off lead dogs as much as the next person - but I really couldn't care less about a dog off lead that is walking calmly by its owners side minding their own business. If the dog is way out in front of the owner, I tend to go in the opposite direction or cross the road - I don't trust them any more than the next person.

AGAIN, this thread is about off lead dogs that are not like this - it is about being afraid of off lead dogs that do run up to you and your dog (friendly or not)..

It isn't about good dog owners, with well trained dogs that do no-one any harm at all.

[RazorBlade]

This is just going around in circles.

For all those who seem to have issues with their comprehension.

PUT YOUR F***ING DOG ON A LEAD.

Noone gives a toss about your "bond" and news flash: people can't read your mind and know your dog is "bombproof".

Ummmm....... No.

So even though your actions could lead to dogs being banned altogether because of owners breaking the law you don't care? It's not just rushing at other dogs, it's the whole I'll do what i want attitude that affects us all.

That's a gross over exaggeration.

[JulesP]

I am more concerned about dogs escaping from houses than dogs walking off lead.

[Are You Serious Jo]

This is just going around in circles.

For all those who seem to have issues with their comprehension.

PUT YOUR F***ING DOG ON A LEAD.

Noone gives a toss about your "bond" and news flash: people can't read your mind and know your dog is "bombproof".

Ummmm....... No.

So even though your actions could lead to dogs being banned altogether because of owners breaking the law you don't care? It's not just rushing at other dogs, it's the whole I'll do what i want attitude that affects us all.

That's a gross over exaggeration.

Really, I remember when we didn't have as many restrictions on where we could take dogs, laws are getting tougher. What do you think council will do if they get complaints about off lead dogs? Do you think they'll spend money on extra staff to police the area or do you think they'll just do what's easiest and ban the dogs. There is a lot of anti-dog sentiment out there due to selfish owners. I just don't understand why you are proud of breaking the law.

[Dame Aussie]

This is just going around in circles.

For all those who seem to have issues with their comprehension.

PUT YOUR F***ING DOG ON A LEAD.

Noone gives a toss about your "bond" and news flash: people can't read your mind and know your dog is "bombproof".

Ummmm....... No.

So even though your actions could lead to dogs being banned altogether because of owners breaking the law you don't care? It's not just rushing at other dogs, it's the whole I'll do what i want attitude that affects us all.

That's a gross over exaggeration.

Really, I remember when we didn't have as many restrictions on where we could take dogs, laws are getting tougher. What do you think council will do if they get complaints about off lead dogs? Do you think they'll spend money on extra staff to police the area or do you think they'll just do what's easiest and ban the dogs. There is a lot of anti-dog sentiment out there due to selfish owners. I just don't understand why you are proud of breaking the law.

Some people only care about themselves, obviously.

[Yonjuro]

Aussie is right - this thread is going around in circles.

Totally bomb proof dogs are out there, they stay by the side of their owners no matter what..

I would rather walk by one of these dogs than one that is a complete lunatic on leash.. I know what it is like to have a reactive dog on lead - it has taken months and months of work to get him to the stage where he can walk around the park, without reacting to every dog he sees.. He is happy reactive, he wants to see the other dogs and is submissive as well but at 27kg of bull breed, he could be a nightmare on lead if he wanted to.

Lucky for me, with loads of great advice, training and persistence, I can now walk him without these problems.

I am very lucky, some people never get the resolution I have with Ziggy. A lot of reactive dogs are not submissive or friendly - they simply don't like other dogs in their space and as dog owners, we have to respect each other and what we all want for our dogs.

There are many people who live with dogs like this every single day - they want to walk them in a on leash area, without the threat of unknown dogs coming at them.

If your dog is totally bomb proof, personally I have no issue with you walking it off lead. But if you or your dogs attention lapses, I am sure you will understand when I kick your dog away, that I have spent so much time and energy 'fixing' my dogs issues and I don't want them undone.

As for the off lead thing being illegal, well realistically there are loads of people doing stuff that isn't legal or moral every day - in the grand scheme of life on earth an off lead dog (in control) is hardly an issue..

The off lead dogs that are aggressive are a different issue and that is the OPs original gripe (not off lead dogs that are in total control)..

There is plenty we can do but if a dog is intent on attacking your dog and it outweighs you, then you are in trouble. The same goes for dogs in packs - if they decide to attack, you are in trouble.

Find areas that you can walk with a good view all around.

Go at different times to find the best time with the fewest irresponsible owners and loose dogs.

Drive to the places, so you car is only ever a few minutes walk away from where you are.

Check out houses around the area and know the ones that have dogs - if you need sanctuary against offending dogs, knowing what yards you can enter on your walk helps heaps.

Carry an umbrella with a pointed end, if opening it in the face of a dog doesn't deter them, then sure are sh*t the pointed end will do some damage in a scuffle.

Lastly, there will always be irresponsible people - there is nothing we can do about others (other than report them at every opportunity) but we can look out for ourselves.

For the next person to tell they shouldn't have to watch out for roaming dogs, guess what - you should and you do have to..

There will always be others who don't care what you want, they don't care about the laws.. Respect and manners are long gone in today's society.

So for you and your dogs to take the safest walk, take some or all of so many great suggestions posted in 32 pages and give it a shot.. You may have to go a town or suburb over to find a nice place to walk, where it is peaceful enough for you to enjoy your walk.

Very well said. Thank you.

[Rocketeer]

Totally bomb proof dogs are out there, they stay by the side of their owners no matter what..

And those unleashed dogs & their owners are strangers to other dogs & owners approaching. There's no bubble floating in the air with the voice of God coming out, saying.... 'This is a totally bomb proof dog that stays by the owner's side, no matter what.'.

But even God knows that the one thing which is predictable about the future, is that it is unpredictable.

I don't mean to be rude. But people with this attitude believe that what goes on their own heads rules the world. It even has a name, ego-centricity.

A dog owner with leashed dog, who see another person & dog approaching ... bleedingly obvious not on a lead. And made rightly cautious by previous bad experiences .... has a normal stress response, as body goes into alert for fight or flight.

So a problem exists

. First rule of problem solving.... who has the means to prevent or solve it?

Answer, in this case, the person who only has to snap on a lead, when out in public with their dog. And pssssh! to stuff about dogs still being able to lunge. It wasn't a lunging dog on a lead that gave such horrific experiences to those of us whose dogs have been attacked when being walked in public places. Shouldn't even be debatable as it tends to be a council by-law in most areas.

In areas where it isn't a council by-law, then it becomes a case of Russian roulette to walk your dog. And it's up to individual dog owners to calculate risk. For me, it's a no go.... far too likely to meet some with an ego-centric view on containing their dog in a public place.

Again, I am not disagreeing with you but what so many in this thread fail to realise is that there will never be a safe place to walk their dogs because not everyone respects the law or is morally obliged to do the right thing.

You have to accept that you can neither prevent nor solve people who let their dogs run amok - they don't care what you think or want..

I don't understand the issue with walking past an off lead dog that is well trained and doesn't approach your dog - why is that a problem?

It isn't doing anything to you or your dog - in fact a dog that well trained is probably so interested in its owner that it doesn't even see you and your dog.. Just because you have an issues with something, doesn't mean it is a problem..

I have issues with off lead dogs as much as the next person - but I really couldn't care less about a dog off lead that is walking calmly by its owners side minding their own business. If the dog is way out in front of the owner, I tend to go in the opposite direction or cross the road - I don't trust them any more than the next person.

AGAIN, this thread is about off lead dogs that are not like this - it is about being afraid of off lead dogs that do run up to you and your dog (friendly or not)..

It isn't about good dog owners, with well trained dogs that do no-one any harm at all.

I think your sentence above answered your own question for you.

Can we count on all off-lead dogs to be 'well trained and not approach our dog" ?

The fact stands not everyone out there is an aware and intelligent dog owner. Like you have tried to communicate, there are people out there who don't care and don't have a clue about dog ownership. The vast majority of incidents and accidents that occur involve off-lead dogs.

Yes we can work towards improving awareness about dog ownership. Yes we can take preventative action like Education, Promotions, Training etc . But sometimes immediate problems require immediate responses. When we have dogs rushing up to us are we going to just politely walk up to the owner and try to 'educate' him while his dog is rounding up our dog?

So I still stand by my suggestion of stronger enforcement on leash laws, dog registration, impound release fees, dangerous dogs, dog attacks etc.

[mita]

but I really couldn't care less about a dog off lead that is walking calmly by its owners side minding their own business. If the dog is way out in front of the owner, I tend to go in the opposite direction or cross the road - I don't trust them any more than the next person.

AGAIN, this thread is about off lead dogs that are not like this - it is about being afraid of off lead dogs that do run up to you and your dog (friendly or not)..

It isn't about good dog owners, with well trained dogs that do no-one any harm at all.

And you can predict the future perfectly because you see an unleashed dog 'walking calmly' by the owner's side? I remain totally amazed at what predictions people can make.... that not even God can make.

The cattle dog which attacked my shelties was 'calmly walking by its owner's side'.... who had the lead taken off & hanging over her arm.

Then.... just as God knows can happen, but you don't.... the situation immediately changed when it saw my 2 shelties on the other side of the road. Came like a rocket at them. I finished up flattened on the ground trying to save my shelties from the snapping bites, cattle dog ignoring owner's orders. Total chaos until 2 blokes in a passing truck came to help.

This IS what this thread IS about. Dogs not on lead in real-life situations that are not predictable for dogs owners out walking their leashed dogs..

All situations are not predictable. Which is why councils usually have a by-law.... dogs out in public places must be leashed. Called prevention of problems. Only ego-centric people choose to ignore.

Again..... what bubble floats above the heads of your 'good owners with well trained (unleashed) dogs' to tell other dog owners that they're approaching? Frankly, only observable thing, is that an ego-centric person is approaching who believes they don't have to obey a simple by-law. Not exactly a great reference for their sense of responsibility.

As I said, in areas without these by-laws, it's Russian roulette. Which is why I don't go there.

Edited September 16, 2013 by mita

[Alison03]

This is just going around in circles.

For all those who seem to have issues with their comprehension.

PUT YOUR F***ING DOG ON A LEAD.

Noone gives a toss about your "bond" and news flash: people can't read your mind and know your dog is "bombproof".

Short and to the point Aussie3, I agree with you whole heartedly. :)