Onwards With An Itchy Dog..

[redangel]

I currently have a 12 month poodle on a food trial. She is five weeks in on a sweet potato/roo diet and has been on a high dose cortisone & antibotic for the duration. Her vet visit today says she is improving and that now we are working on lowering her cortisone dosage. My concerns are that since this diet she has advancing dental tartar buildup and weight loss (she was thin underweight to start) I was reccomended that it is likely she will be on cortisone/allergy diet for life I was told I should switch her to Hills z/d. I hate commercial foods and in my 35 yrs of owning dogs, never had an allergy affected dog, nor requirement for commercial brand food. I am at a cross road: I have read online of recalls and ingredients in the prepared foods that have been allegedly banned in human foods. I am torn between vet advise/ dog requirements/personal concerns for long term effects...

Can anyone advise? Any vets in the house?

[persephone]

can you feed roo tails with the meat on them , and some veg oil or some fat of some sort? Feed her several small meals a day of roo/sweet potato , so the quantity is increased ..

My Mitchell , who had multiple allergies , and lived a lot of his life on & fresh raw meat/bones with boiled up vege/fruit peel scraps was on prednil ( anti histamine/cortisone ) for most of the 10 yrs I had him . It increased his weight in latter years , but that's about all .

[westiemum]

I agree with you and Perse. I'm just not convinced about these so called elimination diets, particularly those based on commercial dry food - and I've never heard of one that's worked definitively and well.(But happy to be corrected).

I had a very itchy Westie girl who did elimination diet, cortisone, antihistamines, ,Atopica ( boy that hurt financially) - and the thing that has helped her most is cutting out all grains and keeping her on a simple unprocessed no colours and preservatives and human grade diet. Roo is also a low allergenic meat - so I'd give Perses suggestions a go. Will be really interested to hear how you get on.

[temperamentfirst]

I found no wheat, very little red meat, corn oil and fish oil worked wonders!

[redangel]

Thank you for your input, I realize in the big scheme of things a skin condition is a lesser ailment a dog can have but I am very hollistic in my approach over the years to dogs and try to keep preprepared foods out of the diet so feel that why should I feed a commercially made dog food because vets sell it. Surely if I have the willingness I can make a balanced diet? I am supportive of veterinary care but when I see vets pushing shampoo, dog collars, dog food, dog treats I am just suss because when you get down to brass tacks dogs have thrived for years without commercial intervention. If my dog needs to be medicated for life due to a condition well so be it, but I try to explore all options. Yes I agree Westiemum, this little poodle has cost a great deal for its 12 mths (not heaps of improvement)and factoring in teeth etc..is going to be a costly if I have to do yearly dentals because of her diet. Prior to seeking veterinary advice I had her on a grain free diet for a few months (with the occasional sardine),it was beneficial but didnt change her skin condition.

[JulesP]

I was a very snobby dog food person until I was faced with a very sick dog that needed a prescription diet. I was horrified by the ingredients in the food. But I trusted a Yahoo group who said she had to have this food. The dog has done so well on the food that it has totally changed my view on feeding dogs.

I now don't care about anything but feeding a food that the dog does well on.

[westiemum]

Jules you'll get no argument from me - I'm sure some dogs do well on commercial food. But I also agree with redangel. I recently saw two different vets - one a locum who pushed RC like hell and got annoyed when I said I prefer to feed a raw unprocessed human- grade diet. The other was a once off visit to a specialist vet who has no product, food, collars or otherwise in his rooms and said he believes we've all been conned by a multi-billion dollar pet industry and dogs do better on more 'natural' diets, particularly without grain.

So who do you believe? As you say I think it boils down to what your dog does well on - and mine do really well on raw, unprocessed, human grade. Their recent blood panels were 'perfect' according to their regular vet who was surprised at the result in 12 and almost 14 year old dogs. And I find it cheap and simple to manage. Others legitimately prefer commercial.

[poochmad]

Our male Field Spaniel had really dry itchy skin. We couldn't work out what it was and no amount of adding sardines or washing him in Malasab had any effect. Our vet said to add good ol' olive oil to his dinner, about 2-3 tablespoons...within weeks his coat was shiny and he had stopped scratching.

I can't believe how much olive oil is needed to stop the itch, but it's worth it. He's a real chubber now and is hardly fed anything, but I think a bit of flab is better than a dog who is in so much discomfort. When he can't fit through the doggy door, however, I may have to rethink the amount.

[the cat lady]

Great to read this thread. I have a little sheltie X who is currently into week 5 of the sweet potatoe and kangaroo diet.

We have had him 9 months, and he is 7 yrs old.

His scratching has been under control during winter with the use of cyclsporine and the odd cortisone injection to combat the flare ups.

One of the aims during the 6 weeks of diet is to reduce his cyclsporine, however, as soon as I start to decrease his dosage he starts to chew at himself again.

One of our biggest worries with him is that due to his allergies he has recurring ear infections, due to increased wax.

I was glad to read the suggestion of the kangaroo tails... would the dried ones be OK? I too can see the tartar building up on his teeth, and his breath, well, that's a whole other issue.

We have never had a dog with these severe allergies before, and yes it does hurt the wallet $$$$

I am not convinced that diet is his issue, I think it is more environmental, but time will tell (I hope) it may be a combination??

I would love to hear your outcomes Redangel when your diet trial is over

thanks

[~Anne~]

How can your dog be on an elimination diet if it is on cortisone?

Elimination diets do work to discover food based issues. They work well but you have to understand what it is first and conduct it properly.

You can't discover what is setting him off of he is on cortisone though? the cortisone would give a false result.

I have put two pugs through elimination diets and both times we were able to determine what foods were the likely triggers. Each time it was the usual suspects and no, it was not grains. Beef, chicken and dairy were culprits.

Given that, we could not feed kibble because even kibble at says it is allergen free will have had oils and or flavours added that are made from beef or chicken. In fact I have even been told that many kibble a are sprayed with a beef or chicken based oil like substance for flavour.

The concept of an elimination diet is to have the dog eat only protein it has never had before and therefore not developed an allergy reaction to. Usually this means feeding goat or camel. I didn't use kangaroo because a lot of kibble a and commercial foods contain roo which means the dog may have already had roo and it's immune response activated to that type of protein.

Once you find the novel protein, a filler or carb is added to ensure the dogs gets enough food and to add to energy intake. Note well that this diet cannot be fed for life as it does not contain the correct balance of nutrients.

The dog must not have any other food type at all over a period of 2-3 months to ensure there is adequate time to settle the skin condition. If there is only a light improvement, but definitely an improvement noticed, then it could mean the dog also has a reaction to something in the environment.

You then introduce 1 normal protein type at a time to the diet and you watch for a reaction. I wouldn't add anything more frequently than a week apart. That is how you then identify what proteins are setting the reaction off.

I'd say go back to the drawing board IF you think it is related to food and do the diet without cortisone.

[~Anne~]

Sorry about the typos. I hope it makes sense. :laugh:

[Yonjuro]

Thank you for your input, I realize in the big scheme of things a skin condition is a lesser ailment a dog can have but I am very hollistic in my approach over the years to dogs and try to keep preprepared foods out of the diet so feel that why should I feed a commercially made dog food because vets sell it. Surely if I have the willingness I can make a balanced diet? I am supportive of veterinary care but when I see vets pushing shampoo, dog collars, dog food, dog treats I am just suss because when you get down to brass tacks dogs have thrived for years without commercial intervention. If my dog needs to be medicated for life due to a condition well so be it, but I try to explore all options. Yes I agree Westiemum, this little poodle has cost a great deal for its 12 mths (not heaps of improvement)and factoring in teeth etc..is going to be a costly if I have to do yearly dentals because of her diet. Prior to seeking veterinary advice I had her on a grain free diet for a few months (with the occasional sardine),it was beneficial but didnt change her skin condition.

Good on you for exploring this thoroughly. I think that you can absolutely make a far superior food, given that you are prepared to research and go to the effort of making up your own.

Coconut Oil is said to be good both topically and orally for itchy skins and allergies. Obviously this is not a cure-all but might be worth considering implementing.

I wish you all the very best in helping your dog overcome this condition.

[Nekhbet]

You can make an allergy diet at home with the right vets help. Anne has been right, on a lot of medications you dont really get a good idea what has been flaring the dog up.

[shirra]

Our male Field Spaniel had really dry itchy skin. We couldn't work out what it was and no amount of adding sardines or washing him in Malasab had any effect. Our vet said to add good ol' olive oil to his dinner, about 2-3 tablespoons...within weeks his coat was shiny and he had stopped scratching.

Are you adding oil to kibble or raw food?

[frufru]

An Elimination diet identified the foods that my first brown standard poodle was allergic to (red meat, grains (esp wheat) and chicken).

I am with Anne - I too was confused as to how you would conduct and elimination diet while the dog is on cortisone ???

If your dog is unable to have raw meaty bones why don't you clean the teeth ???

Best of luck

[Staff'n'Toller]

My Stafford was on Z/d for many years, helped a lot. Was able to get her off cortisone. But her symptoms were itchy all over, sores in the armpits and hotspots on the head and neck. Classic food allergy.

Dogs may have lived without the intervention, but we see dogs in remote communities with compromised skin and immune systems and, well, they die - they don't just magically get better. That's what happens to unwell dogs that are left to fend for themselves. They are eating the same food as the other 8 dogs in the house but for some reason they are poorly.

You need a plan, not just willingness to make a home prepared diet. You either need to go to the specialist and spend lots of money finding out what your dog is allergic to, or you need to go find a holistic vet (and spend lots of money) who can guide you through cleansing the system and re-introducing food in a careful way. Or you can accept that your dog may always be on cortisone and that diabetes, cushings et al are risks of the use of this long term.

Dermatology is the gold standard for treating skin issues, particularly where a high dose of cortisone is needed to control symptoms. There are other better alternatives. If this is the case with your dog then you need to look deeper at the reason why.

Fortunately you have been very lucky owning healthy dogs thus far, this one obviously needs more help.

To give you a really simple story, my sister has allergies, after allergy testing the biggest allergen was pine - pine oil, pine trees, pine needles. When she moved out of home her hayfever improved dramatically because she was away from the old vacant block 3 houses down, full of pine trees!!

You may find the biggest allergens are not food at all and something that you can control or remove, but you won't know until you skin test.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Staff'n'Toller

[persephone]

You may find the biggest allergens are not food at all and something that you can control or remove, but you won't know until you skin test.

YES!!

the allergens can be a chemical used around the house, wool, pollens, shampoos, detergents..lots of things

[karly101]

As a person living with skin issues.. its not a small thing. It's frustrating to be itchy all the time, it keeps you up at night, you get infections very easily as the skin barrier is broken.

My dog is also allergic to environment - we went down the food path but unfortunately it made no difference to his allergies, I really wish it would have been so simple that I could have put him on z/d and that would be the end of his issues! We did a pork and potato elimination diet and yes they are not meant to be long term diets - they are not varied enough to be balanced which is why we have those prescription diets. I also was told to add safflower oil to the pork and potato - the diet you are currently feeding isn't very high in fat so maybe check with your vet if you need a supplement.

My dog is now on atopica - not cheap for my wallet but he is so much happier and has regrown all the fur on his legs and has a better body condition too. When the skin is bad a lot of energy and nutrition they get is directed at trying to heal those areas - if you can sort out whether your dog is allergic to food or environment their body condition should improve too.

[redangel]

Thank you for all your comments....and yes i guess Ive been blessed with healthy dogs to date. I have asked the vet several times as to how can a food elimination test work if the dog is constantly on ab and cortisone....all I get is the response that "as the dog is improving to continue for a few more weeks, gradually weaning off the meds...." It IS heartening to know that I am not the only one who poses this question! I am dubious on the elimination diet but at a crossroad as to whether it is the meds or the diet or a combo of both...none the less I guess as it takes time for an allergen to leave the system as the meds reduce over the next few weeks it may come to light? I have kept a diary on her skin from daily checks and she has had one flareup during a period of 2 days where she was unwell... I hope it isnt environmental but have it in hand to organize to have her stay in a different home to see if it is something here- I would think she would be a little stressed to be moved, but I thought if it is beneficial, worth a try.

Im very interested to see your approaches as I made it clear at the start of treatment with my vet that I would be happy for skin testing, it was decided when deemed it was environmental it would be his next course of treatment. It has been easier for her to be without the constant itch and skin/ear infections the last few weeks, she has been free to sleep, play and enjoy a normal dog existence. A friend said to me remember "the biggest organ of the body is the skin"...oh how I am learning this!

[the cat lady]

Thank you for all your comments....and yes i guess Ive been blessed with healthy dogs to date. I have asked the vet several times as to how can a food elimination test work if the dog is constantly on ab and cortisone....all I get is the response that "as the dog is improving to continue for a few more weeks, gradually weaning off the meds...." It IS heartening to know that I am not the only one who poses this question! I am dubious on the elimination diet but at a crossroad as to whether it is the meds or the diet or a combo of both...none the less I guess as it takes time for an allergen to leave the system as the meds reduce over the next few weeks it may come to light? I have kept a diary on her skin from daily checks and she has had one flareup during a period of 2 days where she was unwell... I hope it isnt environmental but have it in hand to organize to have her stay in a different home to see if it is something here- I would think she would be a little stressed to be moved, but I thought if it is beneficial, worth a try.

Im very interested to see your approaches as I made it clear at the start of treatment with my vet that I would be happy for skin testing, it was decided when deemed it was environmental it would be his next course of treatment. It has been easier for her to be without the constant itch and skin/ear infections the last few weeks, she has been free to sleep, play and enjoy a normal dog existence. A friend said to me remember "the biggest organ of the body is the skin"...oh how I am learning this!

I think we must be at a similar point to you with the elimination diet. I was happy to read that your dog is sleeping, playing and being a more "normal" dog.

We too are experiencing this with our boy. We are week 5 into the diet, and for the last 4 weeks have been giving our boy ear drops for a constantly recurring ear infection (I think we are wining with his ears as well). We have backed off the cyclsporine to every 2nd day now, and even though he has started to chew at his feet a little, his general demenour has noticably changed. He is happy, bright and playful, was never relly interested in toys but now is always dropping something at our feet for a game. He sleeps through the night without hardly a movement all night (I know this because he is by the bed) he is better behaved and just happier all round.