What Is Effective Voice Control?

[JulesP]

The kids JulesP, clearly the kids

I could read what the dog was thinking but I had no idea what intention the kids had!

[corvus]

Don't know Corvus, I see owners saying sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit. That is not effective control, that is the dogs saying yeah, maybe, when I am ready and you have said it 8 times....

I usually find they sit pretty smartly for me when they have ascertained that I am carrying treats!

Effective training is quite difficult for the average person. They are flat out getting their dog to walk nicely on leash and come back when called. They might not share the same definition of effective control as I do, but that's okay. I have high standards, and I am prepared for most people we meet not sharing those standards. They have their own standards for behaviour, and as long as they don't make life painful for us I'm cool. I don't remember ever needing a dog to sit within 8 cues for my peace of mind. At the end of the day, lots of people need to use dog parks so their dogs can run safely off leash. If that means we may need to be a little lenient in what we consider effective voice control, I am okay with that. I would not like to think of how many people and dogs would be excluded otherwise. Sub-optimal trainers need to exercise their dogs as well.

[Santo66]

It's pretty easy to write it off as such and for people to make excuses as to why their dog can't or won't be taught to recall. If I believed all the bullcrap about Sighthounds and how untrainable they are, I'd never have bothered to teach mine.

Some individual dogs in the same breed have better handler focus than others, that is they are easier to establish value for handler reward and dogs like that are easier to train a super recall than dogs who find more instinctive value in chasing things they shouldn't.

She is trained in prey drive and has more value for the game I provide than anything else, she has also been taught from day one that toys and playing with me give her drive satisfaction, not chasing after wild animals etc.

Good foundation training makes a big difference preparing a dog for super recall........I have a working line GSD trained from day 1 in handler induced drive satisfaction, recall and off leash obedience followed on from early training to the point that he doesn't get distracted at all having learned that the best reward comes from me, as Huski said previously, they don't want to miss out on what may be on offer from the handler, but the dog needs enough genetic drive for this to work to it's optimum. I have a lower drive GSD also who's not bad but nothing like action man who's a nut case in drive

Edited August 23, 2013 by Santo66

[Steph M]

Don't know Corvus, I see owners saying sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit. That is not effective control, that is the dogs saying yeah, maybe, when I am ready and you have said it 8 times....

I usually find they sit pretty smartly for me when they have ascertained that I am carrying treats!

Effective training is quite difficult for the average person. They are flat out getting their dog to walk nicely on leash and come back when called. They might not share the same definition of effective control as I do, but that's okay. I have high standards, and I am prepared for most people we meet not sharing those standards. They have their own standards for behaviour, and as long as they don't make life painful for us I'm cool. I don't remember ever needing a dog to sit within 8 cues for my peace of mind. At the end of the day, lots of people need to use dog parks so their dogs can run safely off leash. If that means we may need to be a little lenient in what we consider effective voice control, I am okay with that. I would not like to think of how many people and dogs would be excluded otherwise. Sub-optimal trainers need to exercise their dogs as well.

You sound so much more accepting than some posts on here.

I'll be honest, sometimes I read these threads and feel like a massive failure. Haha.

I feel like I'm not following the right guidelines or definitions and I'm not where we should be at this age, but offline I'm thrilled to bits with how we're going.

Gus is 4.5 months now and I happily take him to the off lead park daily and let him have a run and a play and a sniff, he's getting better with his recall but nowhere near 100%.

I don't feel he's pestering anyone and have never had anyone complain, if he really decides not to listen, which is getting rarer and rarer, he's easy to catch and will happily be redirected after being shown a toy or treat etc, but it hasn't been much of a problem.

It's a lovely fenced park with a core group of regulars and while he sniffs and plays I chat to the owners and everyone wins, he still recalls on my terms and we both get what we want.

For 4 months he's doing incredibly well, I hardly have any problems now but wouldn't call him 100% reliable, but would say I had effective control most of the time, not always on the first go but we always get there.

I'm a pretty major novice, and while we're getting into obedience when our local club has an intake next month, I don't want to feel like I can't take him out and let him be a dog in the mean time. If he was a real PITA it would be different, but we work well enough together for me to say yes, he's allowed off leash and when he comes back when asked it's like Christmas!

I get right down and tell him how fabulous he is and shove food in his face and so far so good. I'm that loopy woman down the park, for sure. There's always one.

So I don't know what my definition is, because as a novice/sub optimal trainer I guess my definition is different, my trust obviously is at a different threshold but I think that's part of why it's so hard to enforce laws like that, I wonder if there's a checklist or solid definition the council go by.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Steph M

[huski]

I think plenty of pet owners would like a reliable recall, they just don't know how to do it. Training a good recall would be one of the most common things pet owners ask about when they come for training. It doesn't have to be something that is difficult to train. I don't think you have to be a super trainer either - we teach plenty of pet owners how to get a reliable recall and they can and do achieve it.

Edited August 23, 2013 by huski

[WreckitWhippet]

It's pretty easy to write it off as such and for people to make excuses as to why their dog can't or won't be taught to recall. If I believed all the bullcrap about Sighthounds and how untrainable they are, I'd never have bothered to teach mine.

Some individual dogs in the same breed have better handler focus than others, that is they are easier to establish value for handler reward and dogs like that are easier to train a super recall than dogs who find more instinctive value in chasing things they shouldn't.

She is trained in prey drive and has more value for the game I provide than anything else, she has also been taught from day one that toys and playing with me give her drive satisfaction, not chasing after wild animals etc.

Good foundation training makes a big difference preparing a dog for super recall........I have a working line GSD trained from day 1 in handler induced drive satisfaction, recall and off leash obedience followed on from early training to the point that he doesn't get distracted at all having learned that the best reward comes from me, as Huski said previously, they don't want to miss out on what may be on offer from the handler, but the dog needs enough genetic drive for this to work to it's optimum. I have a lower drive GSD also who's not bad but nothing like action man who's a nut case in drive

According to this, I should have a hard dog to train then. Oddly enough, my greatest huntress is also the one with the reliable recall. She can bring down rabbit and Hare and a hare is not an easy accomplishment.

[Mummamia]

I'm interested to know how everyone would tackle this problem... My youngest dog... About 15months give or take has almost perfect recall... believing she was 1 year old when I first fostered her (now adopted) I expected a lot and initially, for about the first 2 weeks, took her to fenced dog park to check on recall and as she showed herself to be very smart and perfect recall we headed back to the unfenced park. Whoever had her and gave her up did a great job with basics and lots of other cool stuff too... Spit being one that comes in handy as she tends to eat anything in the garden... Turns out she was not a one year old as she has grown so much and the vet and I now figure she was about 6 months... and is now about 15 months or so...

My usual off leash area is huge with a creek running along side separating it from the on leash side... So, all goes great for months then about a month ago she ran down the creek and up the other side and stopped and looked... I called her back and she looked at me and then ran... the other way. You see she noticed that our friends we visit regularly live about 100 metres on the other side of the creek... She ran over to the house.. up and down the fence and then around to the front gate knocking on it... Yes I can see from the other side of the creek... She came back a few minutes later... That was the first time... Since then she has done it a further 6 times. Each time going just a bit further past their house and over the street to visit their dog. This street is a dead end and with walking tracks all around so there's no danger of getting hit by a car but every chance of me getting an off leash fine.

I have repeatedly tried to stop this and will have success for days and then off she goes again. The friends GSD's alert their owners and they come out and help get her back... I've tried treat rewards but doesn't work everytime. The only thing I can think of is to have someone on the other give her a damn good scare. My other 2 are missing out on being at the great park as I have had to go back to the leashed park. I am hoping for this to be resolved before summer so they can enjoy swimming in the creek. Otherwise it's going to be permanently on the leash for her if I want to take the other dogs to the creek.

I hope that's enough information and would love some more thoughts and ideas as to how to resolve this little issue...

Edited August 23, 2013 by Mummamia

[Staffyluv]

I think plenty of pet owners would like a reliable recall, they just don't know how to do it. Training a good recall would be one of the most common things pet owners ask about when they come for training. It doesn't have to be something that is difficult to train. I don't think you have to be a super trainer either - we teach plenty of pet owners how to get a reliable recall and they can and do achieve it.

I wish Steve would make videos of his training..

Steph M, I agree with you - I often feel like a total loser as far as training is concerned. Zig has been a challenge from day one. We take leaps and bounds forward and then just recently, we have taken a huge leap backwards. I am not sure what I have done but I need to work it out quickly. I don't blame Zig for his lack of concentration when we train or his lack of interest sometimes - I know it is me and my delivery of the training that we do..

[Simply Grand]

I'm interested to know how everyone would tackle this problem... My youngest dog... About 15months give or take has almost perfect recall... believing she was 1 year old when I first fostered her (now adopted) I expected a lot and initially, for about the first 2 weeks, took her to fenced dog park to check on recall and as she showed herself to be very smart and perfect recall we headed back to the unfenced park. Whoever had her and gave her up did a great job with basics and lots of other cool stuff too... Spit being one that comes in handy as she tends to eat anything in the garden... Turns out she was not a one year old as she has grown so much and the vet and I now figure she was about 6 months... and is now about 15 months or so...

My usual off leash area is huge with a creek running along side separating it from the on leash side... So, all goes great for months then about a month ago she ran down the creek and up the other side and stopped and looked... I called her back and she looked at me and then ran... the other way. You see she noticed that our friends we visit regularly live about 100 metres on the other side of the creek... She ran over to the house.. up and down the fence and then around to the front gate knocking on it... Yes I can see from the other side of the creek... She came back a few minutes later... That was the first time... Since then she has done it a further 6 times. Each time going just a bit further past their house and over the street to visit their dog. This street is a dead end and with walking tracks all around so there's no danger of getting hit by a car but every chance of me getting an off leash fine.

I have repeatedly tried to stop this and will have success for days and then off she goes again. The friends GSD's alert their owners and they come out and help get her back... I've tried treat rewards but doesn't work everytime. The only thing I can think of is to have someone on the other give her a damn good scare. My other 2 are missing out on being at the great park as I have had to go back to the leashed park. I am hoping for this to be resolved before summer so they can enjoy swimming in the creek. Otherwise it's going to be permanently on the leash for her if I want to take the other dogs to the creek.

I hope that's enough information and would love some more thoughts and ideas as to how to resolve this little issue...

I think your best option is to keep her on a long line while you're there. She has obviously decided that sometimes running over there is just more rewarding than anything boring old mum can give her! Each time she does it as well it's reinforcing for her how fun it is so you want to prevent her even having to opportunity.

I wouldn't risk trying to give her a scare, for two reasons - 1. you don't know what repercussions the scare might have outside that situation. She may find it very traumatic and become fearful in general, she may associate the scare with all sorts of things that aren't the thing you wanted her to associate with (roads, houses, people, a particular person, trees, clouds... who knows, it will depend what her brain makes of it at the time and how much she generalises her reaction). Or 2. her reaction may not be fear anyway, at best could be nothing, but could be aggression, could be loss of trust in you, who knows.

I would put her on a long line so she can't decide to go over there, but try to catch her and call her back before the moment she makes the decision to run that way - the long line is a fall back if she doesn't listen to you. Try different things to get her interested in coming back to you, excited noises, run the other way, get down low and open arms for cuddles, play with the other dogs, then a food reward jackpot but also pats, cuddles, praise when she comes back. You need to find what is highest value for her, but you may also need to keep changing things up so she stays interested. Keep practicing recalls from closer distances while you're there as well, when she's not so distracted, so she is in the habit of coming back to you regularly then getting to go off and play again.

[Santo66]

It's pretty easy to write it off as such and for people to make excuses as to why their dog can't or won't be taught to recall. If I believed all the bullcrap about Sighthounds and how untrainable they are, I'd never have bothered to teach mine.

Some individual dogs in the same breed have better handler focus than others, that is they are easier to establish value for handler reward and dogs like that are easier to train a super recall than dogs who find more instinctive value in chasing things they shouldn't.

She is trained in prey drive and has more value for the game I provide than anything else, she has also been taught from day one that toys and playing with me give her drive satisfaction, not chasing after wild animals etc.

Good foundation training makes a big difference preparing a dog for super recall........I have a working line GSD trained from day 1 in handler induced drive satisfaction, recall and off leash obedience followed on from early training to the point that he doesn't get distracted at all having learned that the best reward comes from me, as Huski said previously, they don't want to miss out on what may be on offer from the handler, but the dog needs enough genetic drive for this to work to it's optimum. I have a lower drive GSD also who's not bad but nothing like action man who's a nut case in drive

According to this, I should have a hard dog to train then. Oddly enough, my greatest huntress is also the one with the reliable recall. She can bring down rabbit and Hare and a hare is not an easy accomplishment.

You may be lucky there but I wouldn't hang my hat on training a good recall easily on dogs with instinctive trait for live prey unless you are using aversion to stop the chase.........if the dog has either less value for handler reward than the value it has for chasing prey or doesn't fear correction for breach of command or the prey isn't used in drive training to gain obedience, they have no reason to recall as a general rule, hence the typical pet untrained.

[Mummamia]

I'm interested to know how everyone would tackle this problem... My youngest dog... About 15months give or take has almost perfect recall... believing she was 1 year old when I first fostered her (now adopted) I expected a lot and initially, for about the first 2 weeks, took her to fenced dog park to check on recall and as she showed herself to be very smart and perfect recall we headed back to the unfenced park. Whoever had her and gave her up did a great job with basics and lots of other cool stuff too... Spit being one that comes in handy as she tends to eat anything in the garden... Turns out she was not a one year old as she has grown so much and the vet and I now figure she was about 6 months... and is now about 15 months or so...

My usual off leash area is huge with a creek running along side separating it from the on leash side... So, all goes great for months then about a month ago she ran down the creek and up the other side and stopped and looked... I called her back and she looked at me and then ran... the other way. You see she noticed that our friends we visit regularly live about 100 metres on the other side of the creek... She ran over to the house.. up and down the fence and then around to the front gate knocking on it... Yes I can see from the other side of the creek... She came back a few minutes later... That was the first time... Since then she has done it a further 6 times. Each time going just a bit further past their house and over the street to visit their dog. This street is a dead end and with walking tracks all around so there's no danger of getting hit by a car but every chance of me getting an off leash fine.

I have repeatedly tried to stop this and will have success for days and then off she goes again. The friends GSD's alert their owners and they come out and help get her back... I've tried treat rewards but doesn't work everytime. The only thing I can think of is to have someone on the other give her a damn good scare. My other 2 are missing out on being at the great park as I have had to go back to the leashed park. I am hoping for this to be resolved before summer so they can enjoy swimming in the creek. Otherwise it's going to be permanently on the leash for her if I want to take the other dogs to the creek.

I hope that's enough information and would love some more thoughts and ideas as to how to resolve this little issue...

I think your best option is to keep her on a long line while you're there. She has obviously decided that sometimes running over there is just more rewarding than anything boring old mum can give her! Each time she does it as well it's reinforcing for her how fun it is so you want to prevent her even having to opportunity.

I wouldn't risk trying to give her a scare, for two reasons - 1. you don't know what repercussions the scare might have outside that situation. She may find it very traumatic and become fearful in general, she may associate the scare with all sorts of things that aren't the thing you wanted her to associate with (roads, houses, people, a particular person, trees, clouds... who knows, it will depend what her brain makes of it at the time and how much she generalises her reaction). Or 2. her reaction may not be fear anyway, at best could be nothing, but could be aggression, could be loss of trust in you, who knows.

I would put her on a long line so she can't decide to go over there, but try to catch her and call her back before the moment she makes the decision to run that way - the long line is a fall back if she doesn't listen to you. Try different things to get her interested in coming back to you, excited noises, run the other way, get down low and open arms for cuddles, play with the other dogs, then a food reward jackpot but also pats, cuddles, praise when she comes back. You need to find what is highest value for her, but you may also need to keep changing things up so she stays interested. Keep practicing recalls from closer distances while you're there as well, when she's not so distracted, so she is in the habit of coming back to you regularly then getting to go off and play again.

Thanks for your thoughts and everything you've said makes sense. The long line is the only good option and I will definitely get onto this asap. Just gotta go buy a long line...

This one came to me with high anxiety. All her fur was breaking off. Vet check and tests showed no physical reason. She would shake, drool and vomit in the car. All of this is resolved now. Scaring her was a last resort as she does not like any sort of worry or aggression. This makes her great in the park. If there is any trouble she's off the other way as far as she can get. Other than this one issue she is so cool and a delight to take out. I know she knows I don't want her going over to friends house as she knows and responds to more commands than my 8 year old. As you said the reward is just so high to get to go visiting.

Off to Bunnings to get that long line...

[corvus]

I'll be honest, sometimes I read these threads and feel like a massive failure. Haha.

I feel like I'm not following the right guidelines or definitions and I'm not where we should be at this age, but offline I'm thrilled to bits with how we're going.

Aww, don't feel like that. It sounds like you are doing a great job. Hardly anyone is an optimal trainer. I'm not!

FWIW, I gave up doing half the things DOLers say you should do because normal people are confused about it and the awkward discussions that follow are more trouble than they're worth. It's easier to just try to be as considerate as possible. That means you watch other people and adjust your behaviour to suit them. I usually find if I am communicative people are very willing to follow my lead and we make friends, both dog and human. At the end of the day we are sharing a space. If their dog comes over and sticks its head in my treat pouch while I'm training, that's okay, because I DID bring treats into a park and start doing interesting things with them, so I'm prepared for these very scenarios. It's a good training opportunity for us. Most people are apologetic, which I appreciate, but if we couldn't handle being interrupted I shouldn't be training in an environment where interruptions are likely to happen.

[Santo66]

I'm interested to know how everyone would tackle this problem... My youngest dog... About 15months give or take has almost perfect recall... believing she was 1 year old when I first fostered her (now adopted) I expected a lot and initially, for about the first 2 weeks, took her to fenced dog park to check on recall and as she showed herself to be very smart and perfect recall we headed back to the unfenced park. Whoever had her and gave her up did a great job with basics and lots of other cool stuff too... Spit being one that comes in handy as she tends to eat anything in the garden... Turns out she was not a one year old as she has grown so much and the vet and I now figure she was about 6 months... and is now about 15 months or so...

My usual off leash area is huge with a creek running along side separating it from the on leash side... So, all goes great for months then about a month ago she ran down the creek and up the other side and stopped and looked... I called her back and she looked at me and then ran... the other way. You see she noticed that our friends we visit regularly live about 100 metres on the other side of the creek... She ran over to the house.. up and down the fence and then around to the front gate knocking on it... Yes I can see from the other side of the creek... She came back a few minutes later... That was the first time... Since then she has done it a further 6 times. Each time going just a bit further past their house and over the street to visit their dog. This street is a dead end and with walking tracks all around so there's no danger of getting hit by a car but every chance of me getting an off leash fine.

I have repeatedly tried to stop this and will have success for days and then off she goes again. The friends GSD's alert their owners and they come out and help get her back... I've tried treat rewards but doesn't work everytime. The only thing I can think of is to have someone on the other give her a damn good scare. My other 2 are missing out on being at the great park as I have had to go back to the leashed park. I am hoping for this to be resolved before summer so they can enjoy swimming in the creek. Otherwise it's going to be permanently on the leash for her if I want to take the other dogs to the creek.

I hope that's enough information and would love some more thoughts and ideas as to how to resolve this little issue...

I would use an Ecollar in the situation you describe which acts like an extended leash or remote trainer is what they are also called.......it's not about frying the dog on the collar, it's about enough stimulation to break the drive of running away and for the dog to learn breach of command isn't the most pleasant choice......it's a shame we have half whits condemning and banning Ecollars as this type of scenario is where Ecollar training works awesomely well when used properly........people will never become proficient with the Ecollar which is such a great training tool when there is such a skirt flip over them, yet a novice can collapse a dog's windpipe with a choke chain purchased at the local pet shop

I wish Steve would make videos of his training..

The problem with video's is using video technique on the wrong dog.......like using a drive training video on a dog with no drive......I could understand Steve not producing general videos creating a headache for himself and the dog owners without first assessing the dog's character and behaviour.

I wouldn't risk trying to give her a scare, for two reasons - 1. you don't know what repercussions the scare might have outside that situation. She may find it very traumatic and become fearful in general, she may associate the scare with all sorts of things that aren't the thing you wanted her to associate with (roads, houses, people, a particular person, trees, clouds... who knows, it will depend what her brain makes of it at the time and how much she generalises her reaction). Or 2. her reaction may not be fear anyway, at best could be nothing, but could be aggression, could be loss of trust in you, who knows.

I wouldn't risk trying to give her a scare, for two reasons - 1. you don't know what repercussions the scare might have outside that situation. She may find it very traumatic and become fearful in general, she may associate the scare with all sorts of things that aren't the thing you wanted her to associate with (roads, houses, people, a particular person, trees, clouds... who knows, it will depend what her brain makes of it at the time and how much she generalises her reaction). Or 2. her reaction may not be fear anyway, at best could be nothing, but could be aggression, could be loss of trust in you, who knows.

That's why a dog needs to be assessed for the correct training approach to be employed......we can't just make these assumptions on the basis of extremes in nerve strength deficiency like shutting down to fear or aggression from aversion which are extreme cases although it can happen is not the norm at all. You can pretty well tell in a dog's general character if they have a tendency to fearful shut down or elevated aggression from aversion.........too many trainers modelling themselves on the purely positive scaring everyone with reactions that can happen in extreme cases and we start to believe every dog will fall apart or become aggressive using any form of punitive method which for the average dog becoming negatively affected is all bullshit.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Santo66

[Weasels]

Steph M don't stress too much, I went to offlead parks/beaches every day for 2 years and would bet that not one single person I ever met had perfect recall. I still saw more unpleasant incidents between the people than occured between the dogs.

[Staffyluv]

I probably should have elaborated more on my post - I totally understand why Steve from K9 Pro doesn't do videos (I just wish he did) :)

There would be all sorts of dills out there trying to implement the one training method on all dogs - I do realise this doesn't work.

I have tried many things with my boy and found that basic obedience seems to work best for us most of the time.

[corvus]

I would use an Ecollar in the situation you describe which acts like an extended leash or remote trainer is what they are also called.......it's not about frying the dog on the collar, it's about enough stimulation to break the drive of running away and for the dog to learn breach of command isn't the most pleasant choice...

Well, arguably to 'break the drive' you are attempting to offer a stimulus that is salient enough to become more pressing than chasing something or whatever the dog is currently doing. For some dogs, you will probably have to use something pretty strong. It doesn't matter whether you use it as R- or P+, it needs to compete with highly arousing stimuli for strength.

Many trainers now are relying on conditioned responses instead. The dog in question stopped after the recall, looked back, then opted to go the other way. The aim with programs like Leslie Nelson's Really Reliable Recall and variations thereof (which have been very popular for decades), is that the dog doesn't think about it. They hear the recall and they respond automatically. As long as they hear it chances are good they will turn almost on the spot and race back towards you. The really nice thing about it is you tend to get very fast recalls without trying very hard. Fast recalls are successful recalls. Less chance of a dog stalling or getting distracted halfway. My dogs usually bolt back at a gallop. It is very simple and people usually have great results with it. This method is best learned through the dvd. It works on all dogs, because the principles are very straight forward. There is a section on the dvd for independent and headstrong dogs. You don't need to assess the dog's suitability because there's nothing potentially harmful about it.

Lots of people make dvds about dog training that are popular because the methods are broadly applicable. Take Control Unleashed and BAT. These protocols have helped thousands of dogs all over the world with a large variety of temperament differences and specific problems. Works as well for a frightened or anxious dog as it does for an overly excited dog. Also works great with high drive working dogs. CU was originally designed for sport dogs. If we approach training with a good understanding of learning theory, arousal, and emotional states, the rest is just adapting it to suit the details. That's WHY things like CU are so effective. Because that's exactly what they do. It's not like every dog out there has its own unique set of rules.

[Guest Ams]

I'm interested to know how everyone would tackle this problem... My youngest dog... About 15months give or take has almost perfect recall... believing she was 1 year old when I first fostered her (now adopted) I expected a lot and initially, for about the first 2 weeks, took her to fenced dog park to check on recall and as she showed herself to be very smart and perfect recall we headed back to the unfenced park. Whoever had her and gave her up did a great job with basics and lots of other cool stuff too... Spit being one that comes in handy as she tends to eat anything in the garden... Turns out she was not a one year old as she has grown so much and the vet and I now figure she was about 6 months... and is now about 15 months or so...

My usual off leash area is huge with a creek running along side separating it from the on leash side... So, all goes great for months then about a month ago she ran down the creek and up the other side and stopped and looked... I called her back and she looked at me and then ran... the other way. You see she noticed that our friends we visit regularly live about 100 metres on the other side of the creek... She ran over to the house.. up and down the fence and then around to the front gate knocking on it... Yes I can see from the other side of the creek... She came back a few minutes later... That was the first time... Since then she has done it a further 6 times. Each time going just a bit further past their house and over the street to visit their dog. This street is a dead end and with walking tracks all around so there's no danger of getting hit by a car but every chance of me getting an off leash fine.

I have repeatedly tried to stop this and will have success for days and then off she goes again. The friends GSD's alert their owners and they come out and help get her back... I've tried treat rewards but doesn't work everytime. The only thing I can think of is to have someone on the other give her a damn good scare. My other 2 are missing out on being at the great park as I have had to go back to the leashed park. I am hoping for this to be resolved before summer so they can enjoy swimming in the creek. Otherwise it's going to be permanently on the leash for her if I want to take the other dogs to the creek.

I hope that's enough information and would love some more thoughts and ideas as to how to resolve this little issue...

I think your best option is to keep her on a long line while you're there. She has obviously decided that sometimes running over there is just more rewarding than anything boring old mum can give her! Each time she does it as well it's reinforcing for her how fun it is so you want to prevent her even having to opportunity.

I wouldn't risk trying to give her a scare, for two reasons - 1. you don't know what repercussions the scare might have outside that situation. She may find it very traumatic and become fearful in general, she may associate the scare with all sorts of things that aren't the thing you wanted her to associate with (roads, houses, people, a particular person, trees, clouds... who knows, it will depend what her brain makes of it at the time and how much she generalises her reaction). Or 2. her reaction may not be fear anyway, at best could be nothing, but could be aggression, could be loss of trust in you, who knows.

I would put her on a long line so she can't decide to go over there, but try to catch her and call her back before the moment she makes the decision to run that way - the long line is a fall back if she doesn't listen to you. Try different things to get her interested in coming back to you, excited noises, run the other way, get down low and open arms for cuddles, play with the other dogs, then a food reward jackpot but also pats, cuddles, praise when she comes back. You need to find what is highest value for her, but you may also need to keep changing things up so she stays interested. Keep practicing recalls from closer distances while you're there as well, when she's not so distracted, so she is in the habit of coming back to you regularly then getting to go off and play again.

Thanks for your thoughts and everything you've said makes sense. The long line is the only good option and I will definitely get onto this asap. Just gotta go buy a long line...

This one came to me with high anxiety. All her fur was breaking off. Vet check and tests showed no physical reason. She would shake, drool and vomit in the car. All of this is resolved now. Scaring her was a last resort as she does not like any sort of worry or aggression. This makes her great in the park. If there is any trouble she's off the other way as far as she can get. Other than this one issue she is so cool and a delight to take out. I know she knows I don't want her going over to friends house as she knows and responds to more commands than my 8 year old. As you said the reward is just so high to get to go visiting.

Off to Bunnings to get that long line...

Please don't use a rope from Bunnings as long line. Rope will abrade the skin from the dog if they get tangled in it. Buy a long line that is designed for dogs. http://k9pro.com.au/online-store/leashes/?length=73

[Simply Grand]

Mummamia, Corvus mentions the Really Reliable Recall DVD, if you don't already have it it's well worth getting, even if you already have a good recall it's still interesting.

[Steph M]

Steph M, I agree with you - I often feel like a total loser as far as training is concerned. Zig has been a challenge from day one. We take leaps and bounds forward and then just recently, we have taken a huge leap backwards. I am not sure what I have done but I need to work it out quickly. I don't blame Zig for his lack of concentration when we train or his lack of interest sometimes - I know it is me and my delivery of the training that we do..

Glad I'm not alone! We go at our own pace, but I get the feeling we're miles behind sometimes!

[Staffyluv]

Steph M, I agree with you - I often feel like a total loser as far as training is concerned. Zig has been a challenge from day one. We take leaps and bounds forward and then just recently, we have taken a huge leap backwards. I am not sure what I have done but I need to work it out quickly. I don't blame Zig for his lack of concentration when we train or his lack of interest sometimes - I know it is me and my delivery of the training that we do..

Glad I'm not alone! We go at our own pace, but I get the feeling we're miles behind sometimes!

You're not.. Even the instructor last week asked me what I had done to Zig.. It was like he had forgotten everything from basic heeling to staying and even recall (running past me)..