What Is Effective Voice Control?

[Clyde]

Pretty much I say recall is you come when I request it.

I expect the Stafford's to turn on a dime and come back,

This is exactly what Esme does. I am so impressed with her recall. She can be in full flight after the neighbours cat (who comes on to my property to kill birds, attack my defenseless cats etc). I let Esme go after the cat and she is full flight, when she reaches their property boundary I can call her off and she is back in an instant, very impressive - awesome dog.

*disclaimer, this cat has given me nothing but grief since Ive lived here, she is now feral and always gets away safely - I just let the dogs chase her off to give her a fright in the small hope she learns her boundary.

[corvus]

I don't think people write dogs off as too hard to teach recalls to and don't bother trying. I go to a lot of off leash areas that are unfenced. Dogs have to have at least a moderately reliable recall or people don't feel safe enough to let the dog off. It's not a black and white thing of whether the dog is under reliable voice control or not. It's a game of probabilities, and in a dynamic environment like an off leash park, most people don't have the skills to identify all the factors involved. They may find the times their dog is unresponsive a complete mystery. If they do, they won't be able to anticipate it and will probably just call their dog in vain and damage their recall. But if it only happens once every few months, it might not be enough for them to change their behaviour or seek professional advice. Or maybe it happens more often, but they can anticipate it and they manage it successfully most of the time. If they only fail to manage it once every few months, again, they may not consider it a problem, even if it's happening weekly. And behaviour drifts over time. It may be difficult to realise reliability is slipping and even more difficult to know what to do about it. Even if you do know what to do about it, you have to knuckle down and do the work. If the dog comes on the third go instead of the first, that's good enough for many. They may want it better, but they don't understand how to make it better and are not sufficiently motivated to find out how and put the work in. I don't think they should necessarily be penalised for not being incredibly effective trainers. Who is?

[huski]

I have never seen a dog with more prey drive than my Malinois but she will recall mid chase off live prey, training a reliable recall is IMO something that is possible with ANY dog of ANY breed.

Wow, that's impressive. Does that mean the reward you give her for coming back to you is more high value to her than chasing her prey? And I'm guessing that chasing her prey is very rewarding indeed! How do you reward her for leaving such an incredibly high value item?

She is trained in prey drive and has more value for the game I provide than anything else, she has also been taught from day one that toys and playing with me give her drive satisfaction, not chasing after wild animals etc.

It is more complex than that but that is it in a nut shell :laugh:

It is doable but I find it very hard work, personally. Zeus is also high prey drive (maybe not to the extent of Wisdom though!) but he gets ultra excited about chasing moving targets. I've learnt from K9 Pro (Steve and Huski) that it's more about yourself and becoming more of a question mark to your dog. By keeping your dog guessing, and not knowing what you're going to do next, it increases their drive and response to you as owner -- your dog wants to come back in case he/she misses out something exciting and ultra rewarding.

I don't know if I even have Steve's concept correct, but that's how I've interpreted the training techniques set for Zeus and it's working so well! Zeus's focus on me is amazing; he hovers around me almost on tippy toes eager for what I'm about to throw at him next. Zeus is far more focused on myself than his surroundings and is a pleasure to work with -- he's always been an eager/keen learner, I just haven't really understood how to tap into his focus and energy correctly.

As for the rewards, I was told that when a dog is 'in drive', they're inhaling their food and not really tasting it so it doesn't matter what the food is. I think by training in drive, the dog is more malleable and open to anything you throw their way be it food or a tug toy. I alternate between food and Zeus's favourite duck toy as he gets highly stimulated by it and loves to fetch and tug with it.

Edit: feel free to correct me Huski if there's anything I've completely misinterpreted. (I wouldn't be surprised really )

It is great to hear Zeus is making such great progress! Learning how to use a reward can make a really huge difference.

One thing to remember is that training in drive is only one way to train a recall, it might not be the best way for every dog and owner.

Yeahhhh, but your Mal is a performance bred dog too Huski, dog's like that are not hard to use their drive for training a super recall or maintain handler focus through high level distraction :)

No you are right, they have lots of drive so are easy to motivate to train in drive if you know how to do it. I wouldn't say it is easy though!

I also have a beagle, and plenty of people said it wouldn't be possible to have a reliable recall on a scent hound.

[corvus]

Just out of curiosity, how often do you take your dogs bush and let them explore, huski?

[Kavik]

I'm not Huski, but I never take my dogs bush to explore. And it's not because of their recall, it's because I'm paranoid about paralysis ticks.

[Staffyluv]

I live for the day of reliable recall with Zig.. He has times when he is spot on and then out of the blue, it will take two calls (then he is leashed and taken home)..

His newest thing is to recall but run straight past me.. He only started this last week at obedience but he has done it at the two training sessions we have done at home (without distraction)..

[Weasels]

Staffyluv what's your recall criterion? When is the behaviour 'done'? My dogs don't get rewarded until their nose touches my hand, avoids problems of incomplete or overshooting recalls :)

[huski]

Just out of curiosity, how often do you take your dogs bush and let them explore, huski?

It depends on the weather but I take them bush walking quite frequently. Why?

[The Spotted Devil]

There's certainly a lot of variables.

Bushwalking with Zig is very pleasant but not with Em. She cannot walk and run like a normal dog but is straight into quartering and hunting mode - probably doesn't help that her training means her value for game is constantly heightened and is pretty much insatiable unless she is carrying something. Some of the retrieving people I train and compete with are astounded at how badly she wants her prize and what she will do to get it - both on and off the job. But that is what she is bred to do. When she's training I can handle her off live game and onto dummies but that takes a lot of concentration and effort for both of us. It has certainly been an eye opener and thankfully she is not an average dog :laugh:

[Salukifan]

I thought the question was "what is effective voice control to an average pet owner" not "does your dog have it"?

As to the first question I'd have thought the answer was "dog comes when its called".

Some people regard 100% recall under any level of distraction as important but I'd argue thats NOT your average pet owner.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[corvus]

Just out of curiosity, how often do you take your dogs bush and let them explore, huski?

It depends on the weather but I take them bush walking quite frequently. Why?

Curious about the impact of typical activities and environments on behaviour. :) The way my dogs behave in suburban parks changed quite noticeably when we started hiking with them off leash a lot. The change became more pronounced when I did a lot of body awareness work with them. They seem to find places in parks that other dogs don't find. People are sometimes surprised to see where they end up.

[Staffyluv]

Staffyluv what's your recall criterion? When is the behaviour 'done'? My dogs don't get rewarded until their nose touches my hand, avoids problems of incomplete or overshooting recalls :)

He has to come and stop and sit in front of me and look at me.. Then he gets his ball or a treat most times (he will do it with just a good boy and a good scruff up)..

Edited August 23, 2013 by Staffyluv

[huski]

Corvus I don't take my dogs to dog parks, we either go bush walking or go for walks in busy areas or I run them in open fields. I don't notice an obvious difference aside from letting them run off leash on bush walks is obviously more stimulating to them than a big open open field.

[Tazar]

Effective voice control is a dog who responds to the given command, first time, every time.

To the average pet owner, to be honest, I don't think they have any idea what effective voice control even means.

I would also say that many of the DOLers are not average pet owners..... :)

[corvus]

You wouldn't notice if you only did bush and fields off leash. There are no adventures to be found on most fields.

I don't think that effective voice control is some kind of mystery to the average pet owner. They just never even think about it in the first place. No one ever sits around in the dog park discussing it. Well, maybe the Oscars Law people at the fenced park do, but they are exceptions. IME most people do have verbal control of their dogs to the point where the dogs don't run all over the place doing what they like. They are responsive, just not exactly prompt about it. When people take their dogs out and let them off leash, they are not thinking "Hold on, do I have verbal control of my dog today? How reliable is his recall? Will he turn on a dime or do an arch? Are both acceptable?" They find out when they let the dog off and adjust their behaviour accordingly. I almost never think about it. I know what level of responsiveness I am happy with and I know what to expect from them.

[Weasels]

I think effective control just means keeping your dog from being a problem to anyone else in public. If a dog is barreling towards us I don't care if the owner takes 1, 2, or 5 commands to get it back as long as the dog turns back before it becomes a nuisance.

[huski]

I'm not sure what your point is Corvus

[JulesP]

I had 1 large black dog and 3 toddlers barreling towards me and the dogs last Saturday. The 'owner' didn't have control over any of them. I didn't know if I should be more worried about the kids or the dog :laugh:

[Tazar]

Don't know Corvus, I see owners saying sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit. That is not effective control, that is the dogs saying yeah, maybe, when I am ready and you have said it 8 times....

[Tazar]

The kids JulesP, clearly the kids