What Is Effective Voice Control?

[Steph M]

Steph M don't stress too much, I went to offlead parks/beaches every day for 2 years and would bet that not one single person I ever met had perfect recall. I still saw more unpleasant incidents between the people than occured between the dogs.

I felt much better today when I saw a kelpie 2 metres away steal a woman's meat pie and was able to call Gus back from joining the fun.

a) He didn't steal the pie, which in all honesty could have been any dog. Who brings a pie to the park and then tries to wave a dog away WITH the pie?

b) He came back rather than sharing the pie with the culprit. It's the little things....haha.

I'll be honest, sometimes I read these threads and feel like a massive failure. Haha.

I feel like I'm not following the right guidelines or definitions and I'm not where we should be at this age, but offline I'm thrilled to bits with how we're going.

Aww, don't feel like that. It sounds like you are doing a great job. Hardly anyone is an optimal trainer. I'm not!

FWIW, I gave up doing half the things DOLers say you should do because normal people are confused about it and the awkward discussions that follow are more trouble than they're worth. It's easier to just try to be as considerate as possible. That means you watch other people and adjust your behaviour to suit them. I usually find if I am communicative people are very willing to follow my lead and we make friends, both dog and human. At the end of the day we are sharing a space. If their dog comes over and sticks its head in my treat pouch while I'm training, that's okay, because I DID bring treats into a park and start doing interesting things with them, so I'm prepared for these very scenarios. It's a good training opportunity for us. Most people are apologetic, which I appreciate, but if we couldn't handle being interrupted I shouldn't be training in an environment where interruptions are likely to happen.

I like your view of that! And you gotta have a sense of humour about these things, I suppose being too serious gets you, your dog or others nowhere.

I've met a load of really lovely people down the park, and more than a few have offered me some pretty good tips and are openly helpful. If Gus is being a brat and not coming back, they will stop and wait rather than take off so I guess we're lucky in that respect, but I don't wanna push it too much! Haha.

[Mummamia]

Steph M don't stress too much, I went to offlead parks/beaches every day for 2 years and would bet that not one single person I ever met had perfect recall. I still saw more unpleasant incidents between the people than occured between the dogs.

I felt much better today when I saw a kelpie 2 metres away steal a woman's meat pie and was able to call Gus back from joining the fun.

a) He didn't steal the pie, which in all honesty could have been any dog. Who brings a pie to the park and then tries to wave a dog away WITH the pie?

b) He came back rather than sharing the pie with the culprit. It's the little things....haha.

I'll be honest, sometimes I read these threads and feel like a massive failure. Haha.

I feel like I'm not following the right guidelines or definitions and I'm not where we should be at this age, but offline I'm thrilled to bits with how we're going.

Aww, don't feel like that. It sounds like you are doing a great job. Hardly anyone is an optimal trainer. I'm not!

FWIW, I gave up doing half the things DOLers say you should do because normal people are confused about it and the awkward discussions that follow are more trouble than they're worth. It's easier to just try to be as considerate as possible. That means you watch other people and adjust your behaviour to suit them. I usually find if I am communicative people are very willing to follow my lead and we make friends, both dog and human. At the end of the day we are sharing a space. If their dog comes over and sticks its head in my treat pouch while I'm training, that's okay, because I DID bring treats into a park and start doing interesting things with them, so I'm prepared for these very scenarios. It's a good training opportunity for us. Most people are apologetic, which I appreciate, but if we couldn't handle being interrupted I shouldn't be training in an environment where interruptions are likely to happen.

I like your view of that! And you gotta have a sense of humour about these things, I suppose being too serious gets you, your dog or others nowhere.

I've met a load of really lovely people down the park, and more than a few have offered me some pretty good tips and are openly helpful. If Gus is being a brat and not coming back, they will stop and wait rather than take off so I guess we're lucky in that respect, but I don't wanna push it too much! Haha.

There was a post on this site recently which asked if we loved all our dogs the same or words to that effect. My response was that I loved them all the same but treated them differently because they all had different personalities and needs... It's the same with training needs they all respond differently. We just have to figure it out. As good dog owners we keep working on it. I've always said that my first dog tried so hard to teach me but because she was so perfect I learnt nothing. The next one made me learn stuff so she could live a happy life and each dog that comes along shows me a different side to responsible dog ownership. One dog is soooo easy and makes you feel like the best dog owner in the world and another can make you feel like a right idiot. :D Off to do more research on the long lead and looking forward to returning to the good park for summer...

p.s. Love the sense of humour too...

Edited August 24, 2013 by Mummamia

[Mummamia]

Mummamia, Corvus mentions the Really Reliable Recall DVD, if you don't already have it it's well worth getting, even if you already have a good recall it's still interesting.

Thanks... I'll definitely have a look :)

[Santo66]

I would use an Ecollar in the situation you describe which acts like an extended leash or remote trainer is what they are also called.......it's not about frying the dog on the collar, it's about enough stimulation to break the drive of running away and for the dog to learn breach of command isn't the most pleasant choice...

Well, arguably to 'break the drive' you are attempting to offer a stimulus that is salient enough to become more pressing than chasing something or whatever the dog is currently doing. For some dogs, you will probably have to use something pretty strong. It doesn't matter whether you use it as R- or P+, it needs to compete with highly arousing stimuli for strength.

Many trainers now are relying on conditioned responses instead. The dog in question stopped after the recall, looked back, then opted to go the other way. The aim with programs like Leslie Nelson's Really Reliable Recall and variations thereof (which have been very popular for decades), is that the dog doesn't think about it. They hear the recall and they respond automatically. As long as they hear it chances are good they will turn almost on the spot and race back towards you. The really nice thing about it is you tend to get very fast recalls without trying very hard. Fast recalls are successful recalls. Less chance of a dog stalling or getting distracted halfway. My dogs usually bolt back at a gallop. It is very simple and people usually have great results with it. This method is best learned through the dvd. It works on all dogs, because the principles are very straight forward. There is a section on the dvd for independent and headstrong dogs. You don't need to assess the dog's suitability because there's nothing potentially harmful about it.

Lots of people make dvds about dog training that are popular because the methods are broadly applicable. Take Control Unleashed and BAT. These protocols have helped thousands of dogs all over the world with a large variety of temperament differences and specific problems. Works as well for a frightened or anxious dog as it does for an overly excited dog. Also works great with high drive working dogs. CU was originally designed for sport dogs. If we approach training with a good understanding of learning theory, arousal, and emotional states, the rest is just adapting it to suit the details. That's WHY things like CU are so effective. Because that's exactly what they do. It's not like every dog out there has its own unique set of rules.

It still amounts to a dog recalling because it values the return to handler more than disobeying for reason A:The dog anticipates a reward through learned behaviour or B:The dog fears an aversive through learned behaviour of non compliance. Some dogs high in drive or satisfaction for live prey for example is their thing, their primary motivator and with dogs like that, it's extremely difficult to provide a valuable enough reward to over-ride their satisfaction to chase and perhaps capture live prey especially if it's a problematic behaviour that the dog has got accustom to doing for self reward/satisfaction over a period of time.

[corvus]

CONDITIONED response. Not "I'll respond to that recall because I will get something good." Not "I will respond to that recall because if I don't something bad will happen to me." It is not about trying to find something more valuable, rewarding, or motivating than chasing prey or whatever it is your dog does instead of recalling. The whole point is to take as much of the cognitive process out of it as possible. It is a reflex. To me the real problem is that some dogs literally cannot hear a recall when they are absorbed in something. In that case, it doesn't matter how the recall was trained, because the dog won't hear it so they won't recall. Some people solve this problem with e-collars and hope to hell they can stop the dog before it's out of range. Others don't let the dog off in certain environments and hope to hell they make the right choice. Depends on what their values and risk assessments are.