What Is Effective Voice Control?

[~Anne~]

I know one of my pugs is not 100% reliable. I'll call her and she will stop and look at me (therefor is that responding?), but she stands there and I swear she's deliberately weighing up her options. If I get her attention again quickly before she's had too long to think, she'll come. Otherwise she gives me the finger and goes back to what she was doing.

However, she is still better than the majority of dogs in our dog park.

:laugh:

You described my Olivia to a tee although she can't hear me. So in this case, I can't ever have effective voice control even if she was an angel because have is deaf.

Boof is good boy and comes when called I'd say about 70% of the time.

[The Spotted Devil]

My ideal is to call once - voice or whistle as appropriate.

I have called my Dally off several kangaroos and he has stopped and turned back as soon as possible, even when in full flight. That is my ideal but he has a very long history of being reinforced for snappy recalls. And was definitely NOT a natural.

My Springer, on the hand, is a work in progress. Doing obedience, agility, retrieving, free running on the oval and she is fantastic. Let her loose in cover on live game and look out - just too much instinct if left to her own devices. So I don't :)

I never take my dogs' recalls for granted and continue to raise the criteria and reinforce as needed.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Our local government state law... has a certificate for a discount on dog rego for dogs that meet this criteria

Certificate of Achievement that you can show your council as proof your dog can do these exercises on lead:

* Stay exercise for 10 seconds

* Walk at heel for a distance of 5 metres

* recall to handler from a distance of 1 metre within 3 commands

* Sit within three commands

* Not aggressive when 2 metres from a dog which is sitting quietly with its handler

And effective control is about keeping dog in sight (not behind you), within 20m, and under "effective voice control" - which I guess means comes to you within three commands. Personally I think the three commands is dumb. But I'm guilty of calling twice when my dog acts deaf. Her recall is quite variable. Sometimes she will recall away from bbq treats and playing with other dogs, and sometimes she won't. I need to work on the conditioning so she's not thinking, she's just recalling.

[WreckitWhippet]

sit ? what's that :laugh:

[corvus]

I think most people don't even think about it. I also think it's quite difficult, particularly with some breeds or personalities. I don't go into parks assuming anyone will be able to call their dog and have it come. They often do, so that's nice, but a bigger problem is whether people think they need to call their dog or not.

[WreckitWhippet]

I think most people don't even think about it. I also think it's quite difficult, particularly with some breeds or personalities. I don't go into parks assuming anyone will be able to call their dog and have it come. They often do, so that's nice, but a bigger problem is whether people think they need to call their dog or not.

which breeds ?

[minimax]

sit ? what's that :laugh:

That is what the pugs do when they want something!

[corvus]

I think most people don't even think about it. I also think it's quite difficult, particularly with some breeds or personalities. I don't go into parks assuming anyone will be able to call their dog and have it come. They often do, so that's nice, but a bigger problem is whether people think they need to call their dog or not.

which breeds ?

Spitz breeds!

[Mummamia]

What I find worse than people who don't have effective recall is when you have owners who won't communicate. Dog/Dogs come rushing at you and yours and the very least the owner can do is call out they are sweethearts or something similar. Quite frequently not even watching what their dog is doing. I can live with the ones I know aren't going to be a problem. One of the reasons I now go to dog parks outside the popular times. Dog population around me has gone through the roof and we no longer have the close community we once enjoyed. And yes same thing happens outside the off leash areas. Those few seconds can be really

[RiverStar-Aura]

Zeus was the epitome of a non-reliable recall. He got to the point I needed Steve's wisdom and skill to teach me how to perfect his recall. Zeus started running off at the dog park into the adjoining Westfield car park to explore and it wasn't until a few months back that another park regular came back to tell me he'd seen Zeus crossing the busy highway.

Until then I hadn't been worried because he'd always come back and I stupidly assumed Zeus was only next door exploring the car park. The main reason I couldn't recall Zeus is because he had a threshold and once he'd passed it, he was gone. He'd literally stop in his tracks, look at me, then continue running off -- it was like he was giving me the finger and blowing raspberries at the same time.

It wasn't until seeing Steve that I've now got his recall under control. I learned that because of Zeus's high energy and self confidence, he deemed me as being far less interesting than exploring across the highway and that I needed to change this. Steve set me up with a programme to up my self worth in Zeus's eyes and while it's hard work, I have to keep my attention focused on Zeus at all times, it's paying off.

We're both still working with Steve's programme but so far, Zeus has recalled every single time. He still tries to nick off into the car park or across the road but he's stopping, looking and choosing to return to me rather than run off.

I'm beyond proud of my boy and so very thankful to Steve because without his help, Zeus would never have been off lead ever again. I couldn't risk him being hit by a car, nor would I want to put a driver in that horrible situation either.

[huski]

Thanks huski. What about if the dog supposedly does normally have effective control and responds to the first command, every time, but just this once the temptation to go sniff/chase was just too strong so it ignored the command - would you see that as acceptable? I've often heard the argument that you can't expect every dog to be perfect all the time and that there is no such thing as a 100% reliable recall. (and then attacks happen..."my dog has never done this before!!")

IMO if you get training recall right you proof in high levels of distraction and the dog is taught buying into a distraction doesn't pay for them.

I have never seen a dog with more prey drive than my Malinois but she will recall mid chase off live prey, training a reliable recall is IMO something that is possible with ANY dog of ANY breed.

[corvus]

The training is one thing. Learning when to use it is another entirely. If I always recalled Kivi at the ideal moment, his recall would be up around 99+% in reliability. His main weakness is animal carcasses, and he will reliably recall off them IF I get in early enough. Training has its limitations, and one of them is the person issuing the cues.

[kelpiecuddles]

Exactly what Corvus said. I only really take my girls to very quiet beaches and if another dog is approaching I can easily recall the girls to sit with me. Once or twice though I have 'lost' them, when I didn't recall them early enough and they were too distracted or I didn't notice the oncoming dog and they were already over saying hello before I realised. I see that though as a chance to analyse where I went wrong and reinforce training so that they will continue to get better, I don't see it as anywhere near 'acceptable'.

[silentchild]

I have never seen a dog with more prey drive than my Malinois but she will recall mid chase off live prey, training a reliable recall is IMO something that is possible with ANY dog of ANY breed.

Wow, that's impressive. Does that mean the reward you give her for coming back to you is more high value to her than chasing her prey? And I'm guessing that chasing her prey is very rewarding indeed! How do you reward her for leaving such an incredibly high value item?

[RiverStar-Aura]

I have never seen a dog with more prey drive than my Malinois but she will recall mid chase off live prey, training a reliable recall is IMO something that is possible with ANY dog of ANY breed.

Wow, that's impressive. Does that mean the reward you give her for coming back to you is more high value to her than chasing her prey? And I'm guessing that chasing her prey is very rewarding indeed! How do you reward her for leaving such an incredibly high value item?

It is doable but I find it very hard work, personally. Zeus is also high prey drive (maybe not to the extent of Wisdom though!) but he gets ultra excited about chasing moving targets. I've learnt from K9 Pro (Steve and Huski) that it's more about yourself and becoming more of a question mark to your dog. By keeping your dog guessing, and not knowing what you're going to do next, it increases their drive and response to you as owner -- your dog wants to come back in case he/she misses out something exciting and ultra rewarding.

I don't know if I even have Steve's concept correct, but that's how I've interpreted the training techniques set for Zeus and it's working so well! Zeus's focus on me is amazing; he hovers around me almost on tippy toes eager for what I'm about to throw at him next. Zeus is far more focused on myself than his surroundings and is a pleasure to work with -- he's always been an eager/keen learner, I just haven't really understood how to tap into his focus and energy correctly.

As for the rewards, I was told that when a dog is 'in drive', they're inhaling their food and not really tasting it so it doesn't matter what the food is. I think by training in drive, the dog is more malleable and open to anything you throw their way be it food or a tug toy. I alternate between food and Zeus's favourite duck toy as he gets highly stimulated by it and loves to fetch and tug with it.

Edit: feel free to correct me Huski if there's anything I've completely misinterpreted. (I wouldn't be surprised really )

Edited August 22, 2013 by RiverStar-Aura

[RiverStar-Aura]

First double post

Edited August 22, 2013 by RiverStar-Aura

[dancinbcs]

I also find that an emergency drop stay or just a herding stop command can work better than a recall in very high distraction situations. The "drop" or "stop" command carries better over a distance than "come" does. Once the dog has stopped and you have their attention you can either go to them or recall them. I have had 4 with 100% recall in all situations, one that was great anywhere except on sheep were she refused to take any commands (too busy herding to listen to me) and another who would do the emergency down stay but had a problem with a normal recall. My current two have not had anywhere near enough consistent training due to me suffering various injuries and illnesses so are not reliable on recall. Neither would run away and they do come back but not always right away so their offlead time is very limited to areas that are safe from cars and other dogs.

[Santo66]

Thanks huski. What about if the dog supposedly does normally have effective control and responds to the first command, every time, but just this once the temptation to go sniff/chase was just too strong so it ignored the command - would you see that as acceptable? I've often heard the argument that you can't expect every dog to be perfect all the time and that there is no such thing as a 100% reliable recall. (and then attacks happen..."my dog has never done this before!!")

IMO if you get training recall right you proof in high levels of distraction and the dog is taught buying into a distraction doesn't pay for them.

I have never seen a dog with more prey drive than my Malinois but she will recall mid chase off live prey, training a reliable recall is IMO something that is possible with ANY dog of ANY breed.

Yeahhhh, but your Mal is a performance bred dog too Huski, dog's like that are not hard to use their drive for training a super recall or maintain handler focus through high level distraction :)

Edited August 22, 2013 by Santo66

[WreckitWhippet]

Thanks huski. What about if the dog supposedly does normally have effective control and responds to the first command, every time, but just this once the temptation to go sniff/chase was just too strong so it ignored the command - would you see that as acceptable? I've often heard the argument that you can't expect every dog to be perfect all the time and that there is no such thing as a 100% reliable recall. (and then attacks happen..."my dog has never done this before!!")

IMO if you get training recall right you proof in high levels of distraction and the dog is taught buying into a distraction doesn't pay for them.

I have never seen a dog with more prey drive than my Malinois but she will recall mid chase off live prey, training a reliable recall is IMO something that is possible with ANY dog of ANY breed.

Yeahhhh, but your Mal is a performance bred dog too Huski, dog's like that are not hard to use their drive for training a super recall or maintain handler focus through high level distraction :)

It's pretty easy to write it off as such and for people to make excuses as to why their dog can't or won't be taught to recall. If I believed all the bullcrap about Sighthounds and how untrainable they are, I'd never have bothered to teach mine.

[Clyde]

I know one of my pugs is not 100% reliable. I'll call her and she will stop and look at me (therefor is that responding?), but she stands there and I swear she's deliberately weighing up her options. If I get her attention again quickly before she's had too long to think, she'll come. Otherwise she gives me the finger and goes back to what she was doing.

:laugh: You've just described my Pug to the letter.