Kibble + Raw

[Guest Clover]

I feed both and have no issues.

[minimax]

When humans eat, do we separate our food into different digestion rate groups?

[Yonjuro]

When humans eat, do we separate our food into different digestion rate groups?

I don't know about you, but I actually chew my food which will mix the foods, using my back teeth that are designed for this. Dogs can't do this.

[persephone]

using my back teeth that are designed for this. Dogs can't do this.

if fed LARGE meaty bones etc ...they can and do use those back molars ..although they have no need to masticate thoroughly , as their stomach acids are well equipped to easily break down bones/gristle /keratin , etc .

[minimax]

When humans eat, do we separate our food into different digestion rate groups?

I don't know about you, but I actually chew my food which will mix the foods, using my back teeth that are designed for this. Dogs can't do this.

My dogs are fed food which they are required to chew

[Steve]

You can debate whether it makes a difference to feed raw foods with kibble but there is no way that you can compare what humans do and how their digestive system works in comparison to ours.

The reason dogs can eat raw food and not get salmonella poisoning is because their digestive systems are shorter and meat passes through too quickly to be able to brew the bugs as they do in ours. Theoretically if kibble takes longer to digest and if it really does slow down the process for the meat then its a potential issue. That's assuming the meat will get trapped by the kibble which will slow it down rather than simply assimilating the meat quicker anyway than the kibble which personally based on my knowledge with canine nutrition and anatomy I think is more likely.

[Yonjuro]

using my back teeth that are designed for this. Dogs can't do this.

if fed LARGE meaty bones etc ...they can and do use those back molars ..although they have no need to masticate thoroughly , as their stomach acids are well equipped to easily break down bones/gristle /keratin , etc .

I totally agree with what you are saying and firmly believe RMBs are excellent food when part of a balanced diet. I have found that most kibbles are pretty small and get a crunch or two on the way down, some just seem to get hoovered LOL.

I have been speaking a lot with breeders recently on diets for a Sibe, especially as I am on a waiting list for a puppy. The breeder I have been speaking to, does not recommend mixing due to the often sensitive nature of a Sibes stomach. She recommends a good quality kibble like TOTW or going PMR if one has the time and freezer space. Having said that there will certainly be Sibe owners and breeders that say mixing is fine.

I will say again that most dogs are probably fine on mixed, the different digestion rates may not be a problem for many dogs, however I do not buy into that old chestnut that we as humans don't separate food types when we eat so why should dogs.

All of these theories and so-called rules are simply guides. I have a friend who fed his Lab cooked lamb chops with bones almost every week despite my protestations. The Lab lived a long and healthy life. Plenty of people at the local vineyards have dogs that eat grapes regularly with no adverse side effects. My pop smoked and drank every day and lived healthily well into his 80s.... there are numerous examples of dogs and humans having no problems with diets that health professionals would consider less than ideal or downright dangerous. The question I always ask is, is there a better way??

I am not 100% for or against mixing, I have previously stated my reasoning. I remain open but unconvinced that the sum of the two parts is better than the whole of one part in an individual meal.

[Whiskered]

When humans eat, do we separate our food into different digestion rate groups?

I don't know about you, but I actually chew my food which will mix the foods, using my back teeth that are designed for this. Dogs can't do this.

Not exactly. Mastication in humans essentially serves to beak the food down into smaller particles so digestive enzymes have access to greater surface area and enzyme digestion of specific foods starts in the mouth: the longer its chewed the more nutrition can be extracted.

It's true dog molars are more efficient at crushing than chewing, but still need the mechanical action of chewing things like RMB to preserve dental health.

Its the stomach that has the role of mixing foods and does an extremely effective job. In a healthy dog, the peristaltic action of the stomach mixes digestive juices secreted from the stomach mucosa with food to form chyme and small amounts of chyme are secreted into the duodenum as it develops. Food compositions that take longer to break down, stay longer (or are expelled) and those that are faster to break down are excreted through the pyloris faster.

Its a very efficient system so the combination of foods that pass through a canine mouth and how well its chewed don't really have any negative impact on the way the body prepares it to be metabolized. Besides obvious issues like a dog with a disease process present or feeding excessive fats of course!!

Edited August 22, 2013 by Whiskered

[Yonjuro]

When humans eat, do we separate our food into different digestion rate groups?

I don't know about you, but I actually chew my food which will mix the foods, using my back teeth that are designed for this. Dogs can't do this.

Not exactly. Mastication in humans essentially serves to beak the food down into smaller particles so digestive enzymes have access to greater surface area and enzyme digestion of specific foods starts in the mouth: the longer its chewed the more nutrition can be extraction.

It's true dog molars are more efficient at crushing than chewing, but still need the mechanical action of chewing things like RMB to preserve dental health.

Its the stomach that has the role of mixing foods and does an extremely effective job. In a healthy dog, the peristaltic action of the stomach and the digestive juices secreted from the stomach mucosa form chyme and small amounts of chyme are secreted into the duodenum as it develops. Food compositions that take longer to break down, stay longer (or are expelled) and those that are faster to break down are excreted through the pyloris faster.

Its a very efficient system so the combination of foods that pass through a canine mouth and how well its chewed don't really have any negative impact on the way the body prepares it to be metabolized. Besides obvious issues like a dog with a disease process present or feeding excessive fats of course!!

Great post - thank you

[westiemum]

Really interesting discussion . I agree - I do for my dogs what I do for myself - keep it simple and as raw and unprocessed as possible - with the occasional treat! (Mine love hot chips! )

[TeamSnag]

Mine are fed both together for years.. Never had a prob here

[Malakita]

My 7 month old Akita recently had blood work done, and his phosphate levels came back high.

The vet said to cut out meat until he is a year old. Only feed him kibble and water, as that is all he needs (at the moment).

I tried to ask about those people who feed raw. But he is like yours is a large breed and to not feed him meat for the next few months.

What do other large breed owners do in terms of raw? I feed them hearts, frames, turkey wings and mince. Plus some veg.

[Yonjuro]

My 7 month old Akita recently had blood work done, and his phosphate levels came back high.

The vet said to cut out meat until he is a year old. Only feed him kibble and water, as that is all he needs (at the moment).

I tried to ask about those people who feed raw. But he is like yours is a large breed and to not feed him meat for the next few months.

What do other large breed owners do in terms of raw? I feed them hearts, frames, turkey wings and mince. Plus some veg.

Are you saying that prior to the blood work you were feeding mixed raw and kibble or just the items you listed?

[Malakita]

Prior to his blood work, he was getting Blackhawk and also raw. I don't mix mince and dry in the same meal. He has the Blackhawk and gets frozen meats to help clean his teeth.

[Yonjuro]

Prior to his blood work, he was getting Blackhawk and also raw. I don't mix mince and dry in the same meal. He has the Blackhawk and gets frozen meats to help clean his teeth.

That's interesting thanks for sharing. Were the frozen meats with bones? This is a concern that I raised earlier on the theory than kibble has the right calcium phosphate ratio and raw meaty bones would perhaps increase the levels to an undesirable level.

I personally am more inclined to feed raw meaty bones as part of PMR as a whole balanced diet. This is not to say that dogs can't do very well on a good quality kibble alone. I had to remove RMB's from my late dogs diet due to the excess of calcium that the Vet felt contributed to her forming crystals and stones in her bladder, which led to UTIs.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Yonjuro

[Malakita]

The meaty bones are only chicken frames and turkey wings/ frames.. I don't give chicken necks as he swallows them pretty much. Unless I remember to buy some then freeze them in a fist size amount to slow him down.

He doesn't manage other bones eg chuck bones, roo tail,chicken drumsticks, he just chews the meat off. He doesn't even chew the turkey bones and leaves the hardest part of the chicken backbone in the carcass.

What is PMR?

Not sure whether he can't chew or just won 't.

[Salukifan]

My 7 month old Akita recently had blood work done, and his phosphate levels came back high.

The vet said to cut out meat until he is a year old. Only feed him kibble and water, as that is all he needs (at the moment).

I tried to ask about those people who feed raw. But he is like yours is a large breed and to not feed him meat for the next few months.

What do other large breed owners do in terms of raw? I feed them hearts, frames, turkey wings and mince. Plus some veg.

I think you mean phosphorus. If you were feeding primarily meat off the bone as the alternate meal, that result would be expected.

[Yonjuro]

The meaty bones are only chicken frames and turkey wings/ frames.. I don't give chicken necks as he swallows them pretty much. Unless I remember to buy some then freeze them in a fist size amount to slow him down.

He doesn't manage other bones eg chuck bones, roo tail,chicken drumsticks, he just chews the meat off. He doesn't even chew the turkey bones and leaves the hardest part of the chicken backbone in the carcass.

What is PMR?

Not sure whether he can't chew or just won 't.

PMR is Prey Model Raw Diet, this diet is based on the theory that dogs can get all of the nutrients they need from raw meat, bones and organs. Based on what you say , this is probably not the right diet for your dog.

[Malakita]

The vet said phosphate. I asked again to make sure I had heard correctly. They both said phosphate. Then I checked the Blackhawk food bag to see the phosphate level but they were showing phosphorus.

He does have dry food twice a day. He is not solely fed raw. And all the examples of what e has raw, is not eaten in one big heap. It is the variety he gets, of which he gets one thing.

[Yonjuro]

I believe that as kidney function decreases or is under strain the Phosphate level will rise, humans and dogs etc, should then reduce the amount of foods with a high content of Phosphorus .

Edited August 28, 2013 by Yonjuro