Are You Serious Jo Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 The biggest problem with AR footage is that there is no guarantee that conditions haven't been manipulated and it is also edited to make the place look as bad as possible. Who says that is what conditions are really like? If those are night kennels then I hope no one complaining crates their dog at night either. Why aren't the AR people out raiding all the bad rescues around the place as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Gifts Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Thank you Steve for informing me about the snake issue - never knew that. And to Jed for giving me something more to think about re water access. I guess I just have issues with water due to personal experiences and worry wartism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted August 14, 2013 Author Share Posted August 14, 2013 Thank you Steve for informing me about the snake issue - never knew that. And to Jed for giving me something more to think about re water access. I guess I just have issues with water due to personal experiences and worry wartism. Yep its easy to think based on what we know and live with personally but now I know why you may not give a dog a water bowl over night and I live with mongrel brown snakes I understand why someone may go that way. Whats worse having a dog thats locked up for 6 to 8 hours without water or snakes competing for their water - especially in tight areas where they couldn't get out of their way - not an easy question. Personally I think a dog which is fed a raw food diet would not suffer at all if it had to wait overnight for a drink - evidenced by the ratbag who sleeps on my couch who isn't interested in having a drink while she is inside over night even with a water bowl available all the time. problem is if the law says water has to be available all the time - no one cares why- its a breach of the law - if you have 10 dogs its 10 cruelty charges and you are guilty - no way out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodoggies2001 Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 twodoggies, what did the videos say to you about the conditions the dogs were kept in? I thought the dogs were in night kennels, which is why they were small .... most of them had a wooden platform to sleep on (ate their beds?) and they were a bit rundown. Oh and some cobwebs. I thought a bit run down and some cobwebs were nothing much. They didn't impact on the way the dogs lived. Dogs chew things, and dogs had chewed some of the kennels too. How did you see it? Jed,what I saw were dogs that were circling, and I interpreted to dogs being confined in 'small' spaces for extended lengths of time. I saw in some cases, faeces on what looked like newspaper and it seemed to be not just an overnight use but again perhaps several days worth. I saw sadness in the faces on some of those dogs. My way of thinking is if you can't look after your charges, then cut down on the amount of dogs kept. You have to give them the best of everything, including of yourself. I may be wrong, but it really upset me looking at those faces. To me it looked like they were looking for some kind affection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Or could they have been under stress...? Having strangers in amongst them would be a highly likely cause... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 If someone strange barged into my dogs sleeping area and shone lights and cameras at them in the middle of the night I'd think they would look stressed too especially my oldies! I have seen the footage of the total kennel area, and those night cages are heaps large enough for sleeping, and they all open out onto yards. From what I have seen the biggest issue people have is this woman doesn't have flash whiz bang state of the art kennels like the commercial puppy farm have. There certainly were no circling stressed pacing dogs in the video footage released of the entire complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted August 14, 2013 Author Share Posted August 14, 2013 So is all this happening without RSPCA involvement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Not to mention the behaviour many were exhibiting. Spinning, pacing etc Couple of points here - some of these animals were rescue animals - some hadn't spent their whole lives here - none of us know whether they came from a situation that caused the problem and the footage was clearly edited to a point where you wouldn't know if its a problem anyway . The TV footage taken later with the dogs in their day areas showed no dogs pacing or spinning and how do they run around a show ring if they are so severely mentally damaged- best to let the system be the judge I think. Ok. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. But if those kennels are their regular kennels then they need to be fixed IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 (edited) I notice it doesn't say anything about what the charges are. As I understand it, the permits for the kennels are not relevant. I could never see anything wrong with the dogs ... the old dog looked a bit off, but that is what happens - I suppose you could knock off all your dogs before they got old so everything would be hunky dory if AA trespassed. I thought all the dogs were excellent, none of them went ballistic about strange idiots standing on the wall taking videos of them. Night kennels - no bedding, cause they ate it, and no water overnight which is exactly what hundreds of owners do. Just another AR beat up. Go to facebook, and look at actual footage This. Anybody who actually watched the footage would have noticed that the dog that was walking in circles in its pen was actually on an endless loop. They filmed one lap and then played that several times to make it look like it was going round and round. I don't provide water inside at night btw and am considering removing water from kennels over night this summer after loosing a dog to snake bite and seeing lots of snakes round the place last year. I remember that a relative of the owner made a statement saying the pens were night kennels and she posted photos showing the same pen from the outside. They actually had a dog door that opens onto an outdoor run. Sure, it wasn't pretty but it was clean from what could be seen on the footage. Some pups had torn up some bedding in one kennel but if all dogs had bedding and made a mess then everybody would have had a cry about that. Now there is no mess and people are crying about this. Many dogs sleep just fine on concrete, especially during hot weather. I don't know whether the lady provides bedding in winter or not nd neither does anybody else. AND she was feeding them RAW CHICKEN! OH, THE HORROR :p Edited August 14, 2013 by BlackJaq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_PL_ Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Were the trespassers charged as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icedmice Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 This is a video Stephen Thompson (son of Carol) submitted on facebook. I found it by chance after commenting on Animals Australia. I actually found some of the horrific comments more offensive than the condition of the dogs. Clearly these people don't have much compassion for human beings. Yeah it's not how I'd keep my dogs, I don't necessarily think this set up is ideal for collies, but if you use your common sense, they wouldn't win shows if they were that badly neglected. They aren't a puppy farm like AA is advertising. I don't see rows of kennels with pregnant or nursing bitches with nipples dragging on the ground from being bred over and over. As I said on AA, I'm not supporting this persons actions. At the same time I don't think she is the spawn of Satan and there is more to the story. Just a warning (rated 18+): there is pretty crude offensive language in the video. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=650933848250950 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 twodoggies, what did the videos say to you about the conditions the dogs were kept in? I thought the dogs were in night kennels, which is why they were small .... most of them had a wooden platform to sleep on (ate their beds?) and they were a bit rundown. Oh and some cobwebs. I thought a bit run down and some cobwebs were nothing much. They didn't impact on the way the dogs lived. Dogs chew things, and dogs had chewed some of the kennels too. How did you see it? Jed,what I saw were dogs that were circling, and I interpreted to dogs being confined in 'small' spaces for extended lengths of time. I saw in some cases, faeces on what looked like newspaper and it seemed to be not just an overnight use but again perhaps several days worth. I saw sadness in the faces on some of those dogs. My way of thinking is if you can't look after your charges, then cut down on the amount of dogs kept. You have to give them the best of everything, including of yourself. I may be wrong, but it really upset me looking at those faces. To me it looked like they were looking for some kind affection. you're kidding right? How can you possibly tell that from a video shot by spotlight with dogs woken up by trespassers? If they had any expression it was WTF is going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Not to mention the behaviour many were exhibiting. Spinning, pacing etc Couple of points here - some of these animals were rescue animals - some hadn't spent their whole lives here - none of us know whether they came from a situation that caused the problem and the footage was clearly edited to a point where you wouldn't know if its a problem anyway . The TV footage taken later with the dogs in their day areas showed no dogs pacing or spinning and how do they run around a show ring if they are so severely mentally damaged- best to let the system be the judge I think. Ok. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. But if those kennels are their regular kennels then they need to be fixed IMHO. Why? What do your kennels look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 1376463339[/url]' post='6276797']1376462553[/url]' post='6276787']Thank you Steve for informing me about the snake issue - never knew that. And to Jed for giving me something more to think about re water access. I guess I just have issues with water due to personal experiences and worry wartism. Yep its easy to think based on what we know and live with personally but now I know why you may not give a dog a water bowl over night and I live with mongrel brown snakes I understand why someone may go that way. Whats worse having a dog thats locked up for 6 to 8 hours without water or snakes competing for their water - especially in tight areas where they couldn't get out of their way - not an easy question. Personally I think a dog which is fed a raw food diet would not suffer at all if it had to wait overnight for a drink - evidenced by the ratbag who sleeps on my couch who isn't interested in having a drink while she is inside over night even with a water bowl available all the time. problem is if the law says water has to be available all the time - no one cares why- its a breach of the law - if you have 10 dogs its 10 cruelty charges and you are guilty - no way out of it. I'm curious. Do those drinking fountain things you can put on the end of a hose work? I'd think you could plumb them in so the spills go into some sort of a drain. Or will snakes still come for the smell of water, even if there's no bowl. It's a fair bit of work to remove water dishes every night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 In the AA video and particularly in the video made by Stephen Thompson made, all dogs were well cared for. All dogs were groomed, not knotty, friendly, and easy going ..... if they looked unhappy in the AA video, it may have been because they WERE stressed by numerous people they had not seen before trespassing. As I said before, mine would have gone ape. And I do give my dogs water overnight (they aren't kennelled), but the geriatric who sleeps on the bed doesn't bother about a drink - he often doesn't get up until 9.30 either, so he obviously isn't thirsty. He is neither ga ga nor unable to get off the bed. I think we should not judge on some dodgy video made by dog-breeder haters who creep around in the middle of the night like thieves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted August 14, 2013 Author Share Posted August 14, 2013 I'm curious. Do those drinking fountain things you can put on the end of a hose work? I'd think you could plumb them in so the spills go into some sort of a drain. Or will snakes still come for the smell of water, even if there's no bowl. It's a fair bit of work to remove water dishes every night. They still come in for the smell of water - they also come after the smell of bitch milk if she is feeding puppies. Not sure how great the risk is where the kennel in question is located because there is a large water source - a creek not far away but I'm not judging her on that issue because if in fact the footage where you couldn't see water bowls was for real I believe its not something that should be judged as it has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 The rough Collie coats are not easy to look after for the average household, we often get them in for grooming and they are definately not a quick fix once the coat is unkempt - so considering the number of collies shown on the sons video they must be putting a great deal of time into caring for these dogs. Okay the kennels look a bit old and hotch potch, but this is not uncommon on properties where breeders have grown bit by bit over many years, However they don't seem unreasonable and they do have a fair amount of room to move around.... not ideal perhaps but there are many family pets who live in small courtyards and they are often isolated completely for 10 hours a day while owners are at work. As breeders we can't all afford to build sleek modern complexes.... imagine the cost of just the concreting alone..... Personally I have to say there is a lot of dogs..... more than we would find in the average dog enthusiast in Dogs Vic - but under the new rules the breeder having 10 or more entire females will be subject to council requirements as a Registered Animal Business.... therefore the local council is the one who should be conducting official visits when needed, not having a terrorist attack overnight. How many here would welcome someone climbing over your fence at night armed with cameras and lights..... surely council was within their rights to just ring and organise a visit within a 48 hour period - this is part of the requirements of the permit - even under the old rulings this kennel must have a permit to house more than the legal number of dogs for the area (usually something like 6 dogs in a rural zone). This is the problem with bringing in new legislation - under the previous system councils were not following up on inspections of the facilities for existing permits.... how are they possibly going to find the time for the more complex new legislation? Remember every breeder out there - you could be targeted next...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted August 14, 2013 Author Share Posted August 14, 2013 Jed,what I saw were dogs that were circling, and I interpreted to dogs being confined in 'small' spaces for extended lengths of time. I saw in some cases, faeces on what looked like newspaper and it seemed to be not just an overnight use but again perhaps several days worth. I saw sadness in the faces on some of those dogs. My way of thinking is if you can't look after your charges, then cut down on the amount of dogs kept. You have to give them the best of everything, including of yourself. I may be wrong, but it really upset me looking at those faces. To me it looked like they were looking for some kind affection. Someone was grooming them,feeding them well and loving them or they wouldn't look like they did and react as they did in the video Thompson made. The "small spaces" were bigger than the crates many dog owners have their dogs confined in overnight. Im not sure its possible to see sadness in the faces of dogs especially when you dont know the dogs .I sat around for a while tonight and looked at my dog's faces and took special note and I dont believe that I could tell whether their faces were telling me much at all about how they were feeling so I dont think strangers coming in here under cover of darkness and stressing them out would be able to capture whether or not they were looking for some kind of affection and determine that they had been deprived of it from their human family. Nothing what ever in those videos from AA and Thompson tells me they were sad or neglected or under socialised in any way. You cant take any notice of any props you see in the illegally shot video - its too easy to set it up for the cameras and edit it. Where is the RSPCA why didn't they prosecute for cruelty ,why didnt the RSPCA take them away if they were being treated cruelly - how come they were left there? Why is there no reports of vet finding on their poor health and neglected condition? I think we should all wait to see what it is exactly she is charged with and what if anything she is found guilty of because it could be anything from not filling out a form to having a gap that's a bit over size under a gate. I promise you one of them wont be because they looked sad or they looked like they were looking for affection and to be honest no one has the right to judge based on what they think the dogs are feeling in this case or any other. She has been tagged as a puppy farmer because she owns fertile dogs not because she had puppies in sub standard conditions because there were no puppies and she rarely ever had any puppies over the last 40 years. After seeing the Thompson video its pretty hard to understand why she should be punished as she has been already let alone what may come so Im not up for joining lynch mobs - and if that's it - if that's as bad as they have to push their agenda and bring in tougher codes etc for every person who owns fertile dogs - if that's what they call a puppy farmer - it all appears to be a bit weird. Lets all wait and see what the charges are and what the outcome is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myValkyrie Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I too would be interested in what the charges are. After viewing the Facebook footage, I saw maybe not new or super-flash kennels but they were solid, secure, clean & roomy with good light & vision for the dogs - I really liked the drop cloths on the sides for when the weather is bad, neat idea. I saw friendly relaxed dogs in good condition & as someone else pointed out - a heavy coated breed with big grooming requirements, in gorgeous coat - along with lots of bright eyes & waggy tails. I know if someone were to sneak onto my property tonight (assuming they weren't bailed up by a cranky Maremma) they would find things that could be made to look terrible. I have a Maremma bitch recovering from surgery to remove a tumour - she's healing well but the wound looks very large & nasty, she's still very sore and she's missing her coat from the hips back - she would look dreadful to someone who didn't know. I have an old buck who injured his foot - it's been treated & he's a lot better, though still quite lame (& milking it for all it's worth - goat muesli apparently is the only thing that makes him feel better :) ). I also have a yard full of fresh weaned kiddies who are crying piteously for their mothers & are a picture of abject misery when they don't have their heads in a feed bin or too busy playing. Context & perspective make the difference. With the Facebook footage in mind, I think if this lady is convicted (if the charges are cruelty/neglect/mistreatment related), you can kiss dog breeding as a hobby goodbye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Interesting that the RSPCA haven't put in their own dibs on this case... all charges are being brought by Council... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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