Long Wait - 80 Charges.

[Steve]

It has now been confirmed that the owner of the property has been charged with 80 offences - with the case to continue in Court this week.

http://www.animalsaustralia.org/features/calstead-collies-update.php

[Are You Serious Jo]

It will be very interesting to see how this develops. I do think her being a breeder got her more charges than say Moorook, a hell hole that happens to be called a shelter. I am not saying excuse any wrong doing just that her conditions weren't much different to Moorook's but there are a lot more charges.

[WreckitWhippet]

Got anything other than Animals Australia's say so ?

I missed the facebook link

Edited August 14, 2013 by WreckitWhippet

[WreckitWhippet]

While Casey Council has shown that they are willing to take strong action against irresponsible breeders, the same cannot be said for Dogs Victoria. Calstead Collies has been allowed to remain a member, without any apparent repercussions from their representative body.

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty ? At best Dogs Vic could suspend the membership pending the outcome.

[mixeduppup]

That is disgusting. So glad they got charges now lets hope they get the license revoked for good and they are never allowed to own another animal again.

[Rascalmyshadow]

I hope she is never able to own any dog again, absolutely disgusting especially a breeder that should know better!!!

Dogs Victoria have a lot to answer to.

I did a rescue a few years ago from a registered poodle breeder, I took on 4 poodles the council and the RSPCA were involved. Stupid women had over 50 poodles on her suburban block most were in terrible condition. She was ordered to rehouse all but 20. I have noticed she is still, breeding and selling pups and is also still a member of Dogs Victoria. Surely after commiting such an offence they could ban these breeders for life.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Rascalmyshadow

[mixeduppup]

Are dogs vic meant to do random premises checks?

[Jed]

I notice it doesn't say anything about what the charges are. As I understand it, the permits for the kennels are not relevant.

I could never see anything wrong with the dogs ... the old dog looked a bit off, but that is what happens - I suppose you could knock off all your dogs before they got old so everything would be hunky dory if AA trespassed. I thought all the dogs were excellent, none of them went ballistic about strange idiots standing on the wall taking videos of them.

Night kennels - no bedding, cause they ate it, and no water overnight which is exactly what hundreds of owners do.

Just another AR beat up.

Go to facebook, and look at actual footage

[Christina]

If people on here in just a few posts cannot agree on what is the right or wrong way to keep dogs no wonder these laws & rules that are currently being discussed are all over the place.

From the small parts made public it looked bad however there are always more charges put forward, many being for minor matters so often the charges are bargained down to less if they agree to plead guilty to some.

Yes it looked awful & I would not want my dogs kept that way or purchase from anywhere similar but the cage sizes probably met the recommended ones in the code of welfare.

Had no idea that hundreds of owners left dogs without water at night or no bedding. Surely all the dogs owned did not eat their bedding & there are alternatives like straw. A cold concrete kennel or dirt floor is not a fit bed for any dog.

This is not what I would want to see as the normal or accepted way to keep dogs but I assume from the results of this & pending prosecution that current welfare laws are sufficient to be utilised when acted upon ?

[mixeduppup]

If people on here in just a few posts cannot agree on what is the right or wrong way to keep dogs no wonder these laws & rules that are currently being discussed are all over the place.

From the small parts made public it looked bad however there are always more charges put forward, many being for minor matters so often the charges are bargained down to less if they agree to plead guilty to some.

Yes it looked awful & I would not want my dogs kept that way or purchase from anywhere similar but the cage sizes probably met the recommended ones in the code of welfare.

Had no idea that hundreds of owners left dogs without water at night or no bedding. Surely all the dogs owned did not eat their bedding & there are alternatives like straw. A cold concrete kennel or dirt floor is not a fit bed for any dog.

This is not what I would want to see as the normal or accepted way to keep dogs but I assume from the results of this & pending prosecution that current welfare laws are sufficient to be utilised when acted upon ?

Not to mention the behaviour many were exhibiting. Spinning, pacing etc

[Linda K]

spinning and pacing are very easy to show on footage when you keep replaying the same thing over and over, and stress animals out in the first place by strangers moving them at night into pens to then film them being in those pens. Have actually seen footage of the dogs at Moorook being way more stressed than these ones supposedly were from the illegally obtained footage. But then again, obtaining footage by stealth and deception seems to be the AA way. Will be interesting to see how many of these "charges" are bookkeeping type items (such as perhaps lack of receipts) which certainly do not impact on the care of an animal in anyway, vs actual animal welfare /neglect charges (which certainly is the way that AA and others have been alleging).

[Little Gifts]

Sorry Jed but no water to me is a bad thing, not just because I am in Qld and not just because the dog might get thirsty but I'm assuming dogs also need to drink like humans if their throat is tickly or something gets stuck in it, say like dust, fur or some bedding they chewed up? I don't so much have an issue with no bedding if it isn't a regular thing, but kennels should contain more than one source of water at all times anyway, just like most households and yards (that I personally know) do. Dogs knock water bowls over or might be extra thirsty so one is not enough in my opinion. But if you are running an actual kennel I don't think it is hard to routinely clean and fill numerous water bowls. Not saying this alone would/should warrant a charge but if it is regular then it is an indication to me that the owners may also not care about other, more worrying things. And like humans I'm assuming good water intake, particularly after eating would be needed to assist digestion and defecation? I'd hate to think they restricted water to minimise a dog peeing or pooing overnight, simply to reduce cleaning ups kennels too.

Haven't watched the footage or followed the case but do know of two large breed dogs who died horribly from dehydration when they were left tethered on a property and knocked their one water bowl over, so I am particular about access to the very basics like water.

[Steve]

Until this case it never occurrred to me that dogs may not have water overnight. Then I spoke with 3 different vets who agreed that if she had a potential snake problem that their advice would be not to provide water over night .We have a really bad snake problem here and we are the only place for a couple of miles with water so its pretty common for snakes to come in and go after the dogs and sheep water bowls - we know this and we are always watchful but last year the Maremmas killed four brown snakes in my house yard and I have wondered if I should put water out around the fence line and pick up the dog's water over night when the snakes are most active.Then we did a big survey on what dog owners do who have their animals inside with them over night - about 30 % didn't have a water bowl inside for them and they got no drink until they were let out in the morning. My point is Ive always had water available all day and all night but Im not jumping in and judging anyone if they have thought it over, considered the risks and determined its better to leave the water bowls outside away form the dogs over night.

Remember in Victoria you have to lock dogs up at night so Id say a snake in such a confined area after a drink from a dog's water bowl would be a death sentence for the dog. I'm not judging her on this point.

Edited to ad that clearly she was feeding a raw food diet and not a dry commercial one so water requirements are way less than is needed with dry food.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Steve

[Steve]

Also consider this the recent proposals for code changes would see dogs without anyone checking whether they had knocked over a water bowl for 16 hours.

[Steve]

Not to mention the behaviour many were exhibiting. Spinning, pacing etc

Couple of points here - some of these animals were rescue animals - some hadn't spent their whole lives here - none of us know whether they came from a situation that caused the problem and the footage was clearly edited to a point where you wouldn't know if its a problem anyway . The TV footage taken later with the dogs in their day areas showed no dogs pacing or spinning and how do they run around a show ring if they are so severely mentally damaged- best to let the system be the judge I think.

[Jed]

There was a question asked here some years ago about who left water for dogs overnight, and numerous people said "no" and gave good reasons. I really don't think dogs will die of dehydration inside a kennel overnight without water. Dogs go on over 24 hour flights around the world, without water. Cruelty? No, best practice, apparently.

Also, we don't know the where or the why of any of this ...... for all we know, the dogs might have been in those kennels for 2 hours while other kennels were cleaned.

Spinning? Who wouldn't be spinning with some AA idiot with a camera clambering all over the dividers? Who wouldn't be pacing? Some of mine would have been cringing on the floor, some would have been launching themselves at the AA nuts. One of my dogs does a few spins at dinner time - and if you replayed the footage, she would look cruelly treated.

People come here asking for help with spinning dogs. No one shouts "cruelty" and fetches the RSPCA, do they? So why are we hanging drawing and quartering someone because their dog was spinning in a situation which would have been very stressful?

For me, the telling thing was the condition of the dogs ... all in good solid condition, no obvious mats, looked as if they were frequently groomed, the old dog was old, but ok - do we kill our old dogs to keep AA happy?

Where are the charges? What are the charges?

Show me the charges.

I remember someone being charged for debarking because you can't show debarked dogs.

I remember a rescuer being charged numerous times with cruelty, and some of her OLD dogs being PTS because they were old.

I am over witch burning at the stake.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Jed

[twodoggies2001]

While Casey Council has shown that they are willing to take strong action against irresponsible breeders, the same cannot be said for Dogs Victoria. Calstead Collies has been allowed to remain a member, without any apparent repercussions from their representative body.

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty ? At best Dogs Vic could suspend the membership pending the outcome.

I think the video said a lot regarding the conditions the dogs were kept in.

[Steve]

While Casey Council has shown that they are willing to take strong action against irresponsible breeders, the same cannot be said for Dogs Victoria. Calstead Collies has been allowed to remain a member, without any apparent repercussions from their representative body.

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty ? At best Dogs Vic could suspend the membership pending the outcome.

I think the video said a lot regarding the conditions the dogs were kept in.

It would be pretty disappointing if any org including Vicdogs went by a video presented by people who have broken the law and by comments made by people who are known to be more than capable of telling lies and making exaggeration to score a headline rather than making an independent assessment of the real facts.

[Jed]

twodoggies, what did the videos say to you about the conditions the dogs were kept in?

I thought the dogs were in night kennels, which is why they were small .... most of them had a wooden platform to sleep on (ate their beds?) and they were a bit rundown. Oh and some cobwebs. I thought a bit run down and some cobwebs were nothing much. They didn't impact on the way the dogs lived. Dogs chew things, and dogs had chewed some of the kennels too.

How did you see it?

[Steve]

From memory there was also accusations made that the people who were filming actually moved some of the dogs to an unused kennel area to make it all look worse too.