Love Or Submitting To Authority?

[Starkehre]

The unknown.

[Shakti]

Yes I understand that many dogs will obey a great trainer (for a variety of reasons ) but is that obedience or have they actually switched their loyalty?

[huski]

Yes I understand that many dogs will obey a great trainer (for a variety of reasons ) but is that obedience or have they actually switched their loyalty?

What do you consider loyalty though?

Dogs do things for two reasons; to gain reward or to avoid correction. Often dogs will 'test' new people to gauge their ability to gain a reward be that praise, food, toys etc.

A lot of people would look at my dog working and seeing food and toys being shoved in her face by other people and see that as loyalty but it is just the reward history I've built.

[~Anne~]

I've seen dogs react the same as what you are talking about. I believe they are submitting to a leader. In the case of a trainer, they have knowledge of behaviour traits and temperaments as well as other clues that would allow them to assume leadership control in a short period.

Many dog owners have no conceptual understanding of canines or their behaviour and so they would lack the ability to assume a respectful leadership role in such a short period of time.

Edited August 12, 2013 by ~Anne~

[dee lee]

Ok, so obviously a gifted trainer would be able to get my dog to do amazing things, (especially if they use food :laugh: ) but I would be very suprised if that hypothetical trainer would be able to leave and take my dog with them (though if they had a sausage.... :laugh: but then that's not training, it's luring)

I'd probably not go so far as to say my dog loves me, but her history with me has cultivated a very strong need for her to be with me. I think for some dogs that would override a desire to obey a better leader.

Does that make sense?

[Aidan3]

Good trainers have handled a lot of dogs, they are unconsciously competent at what they do, and the dog has no learning history with them. Watch me walk any client's dog, then watch me walk my own dog :laugh:

[JulesP]

Both my current dogs are happy to be patted and will take any food offered but they will not work for other people. You will get a couple of steps out of them if you are lucky and then they are looking for me. They don't tend to sit either if other people tell them to. My other female border collie was the same.

The 2 males would have worked for anyone that had food!

Amber does love the postman though She might run away with him!

[raineth]

This makes me think of the other end of the spectrum: where your dogs are in the hands of people who aren't that experienced/savvy and they completely run them ragged.

I always thought that perhaps that the dogs maybe push some boundaries, at first quite subtly, and just see that they are getting away with things and then decided to take more and more liberties.

My guess for what occurs in the situation with a trainer is that trainers are very good at communicating what they want. And Huski's suggestion that they are very engaging makes sense to me too.

edit for clarity

Edited August 12, 2013 by raineth

[raineth]

Both my current dogs are happy to be patted and will take any food offered but they will not work for other people. You will get a couple of steps out of them if you are lucky and then they are looking for me. They don't tend to sit either if other people tell them to. My other female border collie was the same.

The 2 males would have worked for anyone that had food!

Amber does love the postman though She might run away with him!

:laugh: my Del has a special love for the parcel man!

[OSoSwift]

Hmmmmm I think it comes down to someone who is calmly confident and has no expectations of behaviour or strength and weaknesses. The dog feels that. Does it mean they would happily leave with them, nope I don't think so.

Some people talk great dog and the dogs love it, they respond well - for that short period of time. Doesn't mean they want to run away with them.

I have dogs come into the kennels that do or don't do things that they may not at home. I have washed, blow dried and trimmed a dogs nails - who apparently screams like it is dieing and throws it's self around if you bring the nail trimmers out. I just do it, I expect they will stand there and a vast majority do. I will have dogs follow me around and love me up and seem really happy. The owner walks throught the door and they blow me off, even after periods of 5 to 7 weeks.

[corvus]

I think dichotomising it to "love" or "submission" is probably not that helpful. Maybe it's neither.

Both my dogs would probably train with anyone, but I doubt either of them would perform better for other people they don't know so well. I have a fairly nuanced set of signals for them that basically amounts to several years of daily interactions and training. I doubt anyone could match that in a one-off meeting. A lot of it seems to translate to other dogs reasonably, but not all of it. Sometimes someone else will try something with them and if it's clear to them what they should do they do it. If it's not clear, they start looking at me like "Er...? Help?" They may just come back to me. The attraction for hanging around strangers is getting something for practically nothing. Perhaps relatively the associated reward rate is very high as well. I give out a lot of rewards, but they get stacks of face time with me. Kivi at least has demonstrated he can figure out who trains with high reward rates and he prefers them. IME your ability as a stranger in the situation to get desired behaviour out of a dog depends on how well you can engage them and how clearly you can communicate to them what you want them to do. Assuming all things are equal on an emotional level. And assuming they have enough of a reinforcement history with people in the first place to even consider us worth their while. I've met some dogs for whom people mean pretty much nothing. If they get something good off you they tend to act like it was random.

Incidentally, there's a student in my lab doing a PhD on this.

[huski]

In terms of trainers working other peoples dogs, majority of the time the dogs we see will work better for the trainer, after all that is why people invest in seeing a trainer because they are having trouble handling their dogs.

This makes me think of the other end of the spectrum: where your dogs are in the hands of people who aren't that experienced/savvy and they completely run them ragged.

I always thought that perhaps that the dogs maybe push some boundaries, at first quite subtly, and just see that they are getting away with things and then decided to take more and more liberties.

My guess for what occurs in the situation with a trainer is that trainers are very good at communicating what they want. And Huski's suggestion that they are very engaging makes sense to me too.

I think that dogs can definitely take advantage when someone new handles them, my Mal would do it, my beagle will do it, they want to 'test' people to see what the criteria is and how easily they can earn a reward.

My Mal will also tone down her drive if it means it will make it easier for her to earn a reward, such as when kids are playing with her. She knows she has to be slower and more gentle, and show some patience in order to get the reward. She does this of her own accord.

She also knows when she can go harder and smash someone and when she needs to go easy on them. Very interesting to watch!

[BrigadoonRose]

In terms of trainers working other peoples dogs, majority of the time the dogs we see will work better for the trainer, after all that is why people invest in seeing a trainer because they are having trouble handling their dogs.

I saw this with my pup on the weekend. He even would snap to attention when our trainer was just telling me how to go about something. The expert vs the bumbler :)

[Remarkabull]

Not sure about the 'love' thing but I think it can also be relief that someone is giving clear signals and they know what's expected of them.

I do some dog grooming from home and I have a number of clients who always seem surprised that their dogs are well behaved without them staying with them. One lady in particular bring 3 small fluffies (2 female, 1 male all entire) and her favourite is the oldest female who is the top dog of the 3. She told me that she loves her more than the others and that its her baby but I have witnessed this dog snap, growl at and just generally ignore this woman. There is no respect there at all. Yet the same dog will wag her tail when she sees me and is perfectly behaved while being groomed and often gives me a little lick or kiss on my face when I'm leaning c,lose to her. She has never growled at me or given me any kind of trouble. I think its as simple as I'm giving clear signals to her and by the way I move and handle her she just knows that I'm not going to accept the behaviour that her owner does.

[Loving my Oldies]

Not sure about the 'love' thing but I think it can also be relief that someone is giving clear signals and they know what's expected of them.

I do some dog grooming from home and I have a number of clients who always seem surprised that their dogs are well behaved without them staying with them. One lady in particular bring 3 small fluffies (2 female, 1 male all entire) and her favourite is the oldest female who is the top dog of the 3. She told me that she loves her more than the others and that its her baby but I have witnessed this dog snap, growl at and just generally ignore this woman. There is no respect there at all. Yet the same dog will wag her tail when she sees me and is perfectly behaved while being groomed and often gives me a little lick or kiss on my face when I'm leaning c,lose to her. She has never growled at me or given me any kind of trouble. I think its as simple as I'm giving clear signals to her and by the way I move and handle her she just knows that I'm not going to accept the behaviour that her owner does.

This description of the dog is pretty sad really. It illustrates so perfectly what I said earlier: you have experience, confidence and the knowledge to put it all together to make the dog feel safe and guided. I reckon most dogs can spot from a mile off a professional who won't take any silly business, but at the same time gives them love and assurance. Shame on the dog's owner really

[Shakti]

Ok so some dogs may behave better for other people; would that translate into being more attached to the new person rather than to the owner? Is obeying/ being better behaved a component of love?

[huski]

Ok so some dogs may behave better for other people; would that translate into being more attached to the new person rather than to the owner? Is obeying/ being better behaved a component of love?

No, IMO, 100% not. It's behaviour not an expression of love. There are lots of reasons for this;

- The ability of the 'new person' to read and engage with the dog

- Their body language

- The dog's relationship and reward history with the owner

etc etc

Edited August 12, 2013 by huski

[corvus]

Attachment is considered independent of training ability, and independent of learning theory for that matter. Whether that's true or not is another thing, but we do know attachment is a whole other neural mode.

[Shakti]

So attachment/bonding/love whatever you want to call it Is independent of training? So the fact that dogs behave well for a trainer has nothing to do with their primary attachment to their owner?

[corvus]

At the moment they are considered independent. My guess is there is some overlap, but it's probably more like training influences the attachment style rather than the attachment style influencing the training outcomes, if that makes sense. Although someone in academia recently suggested to me that training outcomes in horses seem to be better when they have some kind of attachment with their rider. Perhaps it goes both ways a little bit. But attachment takes time to form. A trainer coming in from outside of a dog's social group won't have any attachment bond with the dog, and most likely won't form one in a single session. They basically have learning theory and that's it. Which includes timing and clear signals.