Love Or Submitting To Authority?

[Shakti]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately especially watching how many dogs behave when with exceptional trainers. I know several people whose dog gives every indication of *loving* them, is affectionate, attentive, obedient etc but when they are handed over to a trainer who has that innate authority and calm that a truly great dog trainer has the dog appears completely willing to follow that person to the ends of the earth even if that means leaving their owner.

So...if dogs do love us and are attached to us then why are they so willing to obey and often follow a dog trainer who is a stranger to them?

[kelpiecuddles]

food

[Shakti]

Nope. The trainers I am thinking of did not use food or any extreme coercive techniques.

Anyway if a dog who loves you will leave you for a tidbit - maybe it isn't love?

[kelpiecuddles]

Or they're a labrador LOL

[mixeduppup]

Stockholm syndrome. :laugh:

Some dogs are always after someone to follow or a strong leader. You get the dogs that won't do it and the dogs that will. If someone with amazing skills reads the dog and commands them perfectly the dog will naturally be drawn to it. It's an individual thing but you see it in people as well, people are drawn to people who naturally 'get them' and are more than likely wanting to follow them. It doesn't mean that the dogs don't want to go back home after training is completed though. They're just for that moment in time following their leader, which you have given authority to thereby usurping your perceived position of leader in their eyes, if only for half an hour or so.

Edited August 11, 2013 by mixeduppup

[Loving my Oldies]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately especially watching how many dogs behave when with exceptional trainers. I know several people whose dog gives every indication of *loving* them, is affectionate, attentive, obedient etc but when they are handed over to a trainer who has that innate authority and calm that a truly great dog trainer has the dog appears completely willing to follow that person to the ends of the earth even if that means leaving their owner.

So...if dogs do love us and are attached to us then why are they so willing to obey and often follow a dog trainer who is a stranger to them?

I don't know about following them to the ends of the earth - LOL - but what you have observed is something that has always interested me too. You see dogs who owners simply have no control over or very little and then along comes a good trainer and you see a completely different dog.

I have always put it down to knowledge, experience and confidence on the part of the trainer and the dog knowing that he or she is in the hands of a confident handler who is THE BOSS. So many people just don't have a clue and even if they do, they don't have the confidence, experience or knowledge to be able to put it all together for the betterment and benefit of the dog.

[kelpiecuddles]

I agree, I think even something as simple as body language and a dog will completely change their behaviour. I know a couple of dogs personally who are almost unmanageable around their owners but if i walk in with an authoritative air about me they totally change.

[Loving my Oldies]

I agree, I think even something as simple as body language and a dog will completely change their behaviour. I know a couple of dogs personally who are almost unmanageable around their owners but if i walk in with an authoritative air about me they totally change.

Yes, I used to see it a lot when I was a member of a training group.

[Weasels]

Dogs will often pay a lot more attention to a stranger trying to train them because they are trying to figure out what's expected of them. They have to concentrate more. Sometimes this manifests as calm obedience, sometimes as blank stares :laugh: I've handed my dogs over to some amazing trainers and got both reactions.

But a good trainer will communicate what they want to the dog better than the average person. This can be a huge relief for a confused dog!

Edited August 11, 2013 by TheLBD

[Loving my Oldies]

But a good trainer will communicate what they want to the dog better than the average person. This can be a huge relief for a confused dog!

Oh, I so totally agree with this.

[juice]

I don't believe dogs " love" anyone, they respect a good leader or they can 'work" an owner who is weak.

[RiverStar-Aura]

I also think it depends on the dog. Kirah is very stranger wary so won't really perform at all for others -- mostly because she prefers trying to get back to me or watching me to make sure I'm not going to disappear.

Zeus on the other hand, I've witnessed some fantastic behaviours when he's handed off to equally fantastic trainers. He just loves learning and will give his full attention to whoever demands it, but he's much more easy going than Kirah!

[kelpiecuddles]

All that said my kelpie will work for anyone happily and attentively but her bum waggles extra fast when she sees her mummy. I think a dog that is confused or has a poor relationship with their owner is more likely to just switch off and not have that bond and go to anyone who will lead them whereas a dog which has an excellent training relationship with their owner might work happily for someone else in the short term but will still display that bond with their owner and want to return to them.

Edited August 11, 2013 by kelpiecuddles

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

My dog will work for anyone who has food. As long as she knows where I am.

After that it gets a bit interesting. One of the boarding kennels I've left her at - love her. But the other one - not so much.

She's embarrassed several great dog trainers. But she embarrasses me more often.

My fave was a certain dog trainer testing her out with the "its yer choice" game with a view to using her as a demo dog the next day (forgot to tell me that), anyway it only took one lesson and my dog could not be fooled with the same trick again...

if only it were so easy to stop her from counter surfing.

[sandgrubber]

It also depends on the task. I've seen show handlers with an amazing ability to get most any dog to stack and go through its paces . . . but they'd have a hard time teaching 'gee' and 'haw' or correcting aggression.

[corvus]

I expect the majority of it is in clear signalling and an engaging manner.

One of my dogs is particularly optimistic about strangers with food. He seems to think whatever they have is probably better than whatever I have, and both my dogs seem to assume a newcomer may not know the rules and will let them drive the interaction. People at the dog park sometimes sneak them treats for doing appalling things like jumping up, or they ask for a sit, which the boys can do in their sleep. As such, they seem to see strangers with dog treats as potentially easy targets if the strangers talk to them. Kivi is also prone to finding whoever in clicker class is clicking the most and attempting to join their training session. Kivi, you're not getting so many clicks because you know this and you don't need them. Kivi says he demands high reward rates for easy behaviours.

[Leah82]

Dogs get a lot more from their owners than just training, they get love, affection, playtime, food etc (and they also learn what bad behaviours they can get away with :p)

Trainers are there to train so I assume the dog will be less confused about what their purpose is when they are with a trainer. They're less likely to jump up for pats when the trainer asks them to sit because this person only gives pats when the dog does what it's told to do.

It's kind of like young kids in school, they'll generally listen to the teacher and usual behave more than when they're at home but at the end of the day they still love their parents more.

[Kavik]

Dogs get a lot more from their owners than just training, they get love, affection, playtime, food etc (and they also learn what bad behaviours they can get away with :p)

Trainers are there to train so I assume the dog will be less confused about what their purpose is when they are with a trainer. They're less likely to jump up for pats when the trainer asks them to sit because this person only gives pats when the dog does what it's told to do.

It's kind of like young kids in school, they'll generally listen to the teacher and usual behave more than when they're at home but at the end of the day they still love their parents more.

I agree with this. At home, you interact with your dog more often than just training, so there are likely to be some behaviours that have come about from daily interaction and routine. A trainer taking your dog for the first time does not have this history with the dog, so their interaction is different and does not come with 'baggage'.

[huski]

My dogs will generally take food from other people if they offer it in general life situations but in a training situation they have been taught that even if food or toys look available from elsewhere, it isn't. They think it's a trick if someone holds out food or waves a toy around and won't buy into it at all, they don't look to other people for rewards.

I have also got a strong reward history with them and I give them a reward experience which has more value than just having a piece of food handed over.

I definitely think some people have a more natural way with dogs than others, a good trainer also knows how to read a dog and engage with it.

[Salukifan]

I suspect its as much about that the trainer has no history with the dog as anything - the dog hasn't had the opportunity to exceed boundaries and ignore cues and still be rewarded for it.

When a dog understands that it's only going to be rewarded for compliance, or precision and that there's no scope for a walk over, it will do the obvious thing - deliver.