cassie Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 As the title suggests. My boy is an almost 5 month old Saint Bernard and my gosh does he have a heavy head!!! When I stack him, I have my right hand on his collar and my left hand is used to position his feet. I need a third hand to bait him! A dear friend took some photos of us as we were practicing outside of the ring. In one shot he magically had his head up, and wow he looked like a truly stunning young dog, his overall outline was very pleasing. In the other photos when he had his head dropped, the whole look of his topline and lay of shoulder had changed. I try pulling his head up with my right hand (with the collar relatively tight/firm and high up under his chin) but like I said his head is so heavy and will only get heavier! So it hurts my arm. Would love some tips. Let me also say that I know he's only a baby and yes I can't expect to have it all perfect yet, but I just want some advice on how we could improve. Thankyou :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 How does he naturally hold his head when he's attentive? If he doesn't naturally have a high head carriage then either you're going to have to develop very strong arms to "force" him to hold that pose OR have him looked at by a chiro. I had a bitch who wouldn't lift her head - turned out her neck and the forward 1/3 of her spine were in a bad way. If he naturally has the head carriage you want then it could be a matter of catching him in the right position and reinforcing it - pulling the head up and then praising never really seemed to work for me, usually makes them resist and turns it all in to a struggle :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassie Posted August 8, 2013 Author Share Posted August 8, 2013 Thanks Sandra. I often find myself observing his natural stance but more so the position of his feet rather than his head. However it's definitely not dropped all the time. If he's watching something or listening to a noise it's up where it should be. I'll pay a bit more attention to how he holds it while standing normally, while not so alert, and if I find he's always dropping it I'll have him looked at. 4 weeks til the Royal, I'd love to see an improvement by then if we can :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Does he respond to squeaky toys? Sometimes an unusual noise up at shoulder height can get their attention in the right direction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassie Posted August 8, 2013 Author Share Posted August 8, 2013 Does he respond to squeaky toys? Sometimes an unusual noise up at shoulder height can get their attention in the right direction! With what hand? :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meea Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Gut a squeaky. Put in yr mouth. Use yr stack prompt then squeak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 :laugh: I'm guessing he doesn't stand still yet without both your hands on him?? I'd do Meeas trick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 I am probably the least experienced showie on this list :laugh: but I seem to remember a session with a show trainer that had the show lead firmly positioned under the throat, my right thumb through the collar part of the show lead leaving the rest of the hand to hold up the head by gently gripping through the middle of the jaw. I don't know if that makes sense or helps at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassie Posted August 8, 2013 Author Share Posted August 8, 2013 I am probably the least experienced showie on this list :laugh: but I seem to remember a session with a show trainer that had the show lead firmly positioned under the throat, my right thumb through the collar part of the show lead leaving the rest of the hand to hold up the head by gently gripping through the middle of the jaw. I don't know if that makes sense or helps at all! That actually does make sense, thankyou I'll try it. So thumb sort of on the side of the head and four fingers below jaw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassie Posted August 8, 2013 Author Share Posted August 8, 2013 Gut a squeaky. Put in yr mouth. Use yr stack prompt then squeak Ok I might have to look for a small squeaker, thanks for the tip. And Alyosha no he's a wiggler :laugh: I need to keep two hands on him at the moment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 I know that feeling... :laugh: I too hold their head with fingers under the side of their lower jaw. Sometimes it seems like it anchors them a bit and they seem more settled and comfortable. Doesn't always stop the back legs from fidgetting though... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassie Posted August 8, 2013 Author Share Posted August 8, 2013 Ill start practicing this technique then thanks guys :) might be a bit nicer than holding his head up with the chain anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meea Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Most of the show stalls hv them - pre skinned :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Head held with lead & food held infront . His head wont get lighter so its a acse of train now to make life easier down the track . The method with lead/jaw works fine with my guys but will be harder with your saints . Its more of a support method used but i would be encouraging alertness to bait or squeaker soft toy at this age & the wiggles wouldn't worry me as long as pup is happy . As its a giant breed standing still for to long just isn't what there designed for at present so i make sure with my large breeds there not over stacked & i encourage self stacking & if a leg is slightly out i don't fuss. Pups often stack themselves better especially large/giant & we are just there to finish off assist. Use a mirror or reflective mirror to practice your stacking & see what works .doesn't work ,Its the only way to understand what the judge sees & get a feel for the end result Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonwoman Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 As the title suggests. My boy is an almost 5 month old Saint Bernard and my gosh does he have a heavy head!!! When I stack him, I have my right hand on his collar and my left hand is used to position his feet. I need a third hand to bait him! A dear friend took some photos of us as we were practicing outside of the ring. In one shot he magically had his head up, and wow he looked like a truly stunning young dog, his overall outline was very pleasing. In the other photos when he had his head dropped, the whole look of his topline and lay of shoulder had changed. I try pulling his head up with my right hand (with the collar relatively tight/firm and high up under his chin) but like I said his head is so heavy and will only get heavier! So it hurts my arm. Would love some tips. Let me also say that I know he's only a baby and yes I can't expect to have it all perfect yet, but I just want some advice on how we could improve. Thankyou :) Head down could be submissive because you are fiddling with other bits, maybe reward head up and worry about rest when he is comfy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 (edited) I am probably the least experienced showie on this list :laugh: but I seem to remember a session with a show trainer that had the show lead firmly positioned under the throat, my right thumb through the collar part of the show lead leaving the rest of the hand to hold up the head by gently gripping through the middle of the jaw. I don't know if that makes sense or helps at all! That actually does make sense, thankyou I'll try it. So thumb sort of on the side of the head and four fingers below jaw? Yes - under the bottom jaw running from the nose end to the throat - you will feel a little groove and you can use it to gently grip. As others say baiting and free stacking tend to look better but I found this was a nice way to manage a super wriggly Dally youngster to begin with. Just thinking about it I wonder if it was my little finger tucked under the neck - I think that makes more sense! Must. Have. Photos. Edited August 8, 2013 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bex80 Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Try and start teaching the puppy to walk into a stack, with a big breed you don't want to have to move every leg. That way you don't have to fiddle too much with legs. I would hold the lead with my right hand and use the left to move the legs I need to. Once the legs are placed how you'd like them, I'd swap and hold the lead in my left hand on top of the head- like the first photo in this profile: http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=35683 Then your right hand is free, so you can use food or a toy to keep your puppy interested, like this picture: http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=37372 Once your puppy has the idea, you may not have to use the bait anymore. But while you are training it will give you the free hand to use food to make it an enjoyable experience. I hope this makes sense and good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassie Posted August 9, 2013 Author Share Posted August 9, 2013 Try and start teaching the puppy to walk into a stack, with a big breed you don't want to have to move every leg. That way you don't have to fiddle too much with legs. I would hold the lead with my right hand and use the left to move the legs I need to. Once the legs are placed how you'd like them, I'd swap and hold the lead in my left hand on top of the head- like the first photo in this profile: http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=35683 Then your right hand is free, so you can use food or a toy to keep your puppy interested, like this picture: http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=37372 Once your puppy has the idea, you may not have to use the bait anymore. But while you are training it will give you the free hand to use food to make it an enjoyable experience. I hope this makes sense and good luck! This does make sense, thankyou. And I appreciate your use of examples :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassie Posted August 9, 2013 Author Share Posted August 9, 2013 Head held with lead & food held infront . His head wont get lighter so its a acse of train now to make life easier down the track . The method with lead/jaw works fine with my guys but will be harder with your saints . Its more of a support method used but i would be encouraging alertness to bait or squeaker soft toy at this age & the wiggles wouldn't worry me as long as pup is happy . As its a giant breed standing still for to long just isn't what there designed for at present so i make sure with my large breeds there not over stacked & i encourage self stacking & if a leg is slightly out i don't fuss. Pups often stack themselves better especially large/giant & we are just there to finish off assist. Use a mirror or reflective mirror to practice your stacking & see what works .doesn't work ,Its the only way to understand what the judge sees & get a feel for the end result Great advice, thankyou Showdog. And yes I have been practicing in front of a mirror. It's hard to know if it looks "right" from the handler's angle (well, the inexperienced handler anyway) without the mirror, so it's really been invaluable. I think you're right that a bit more encouragement of self stacking might be a better way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Head held with lead & food held infront . His head wont get lighter so its a acse of train now to make life easier down the track . The method with lead/jaw works fine with my guys but will be harder with your saints . Its more of a support method used but i would be encouraging alertness to bait or squeaker soft toy at this age & the wiggles wouldn't worry me as long as pup is happy . As its a giant breed standing still for to long just isn't what there designed for at present so i make sure with my large breeds there not over stacked & i encourage self stacking & if a leg is slightly out i don't fuss. Pups often stack themselves better especially large/giant & we are just there to finish off assist. Use a mirror or reflective mirror to practice your stacking & see what works .doesn't work ,Its the only way to understand what the judge sees & get a feel for the end result Great advice, thankyou Showdog. And yes I have been practicing in front of a mirror. It's hard to know if it looks "right" from the handler's angle (well, the inexperienced handler anyway) without the mirror, so it's really been invaluable. I think you're right that a bit more encouragement of self stacking might be a better way to go. The other tip I got was to stack the dog before you look in the mirror. Gives you a sense of what the dog should look like from your usual angle in the ring :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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