Prozac

[Santo66]

Am wondering if her problems are due to the new home, and lack of socialisation previously?

Socialisation is beneficial to dogs borderline on environmental stability as in nerve structure, but a good solid nerved dog doesn't need socialisation as they don't care about environmental change and they don't spook at new experiences. Lack of socialisation as a reason for behavioural issues is an excuse for breeding's lacking in genetic nerve strength.

[corvus]

Hold on, I need more explicit information...

Which PART exactly of the nerve results in never spooking at new experiences? Ever. Is there a specific length of axons that promotes novelty seeking behaviour?

All actual scientific evidence that I know of suggests socialisation is extremely important. If this animal with perfect nerve structure exists that does not need socialisation, than hooray for it. The rest of the world, however, will need to socialise their dogs at a young age for really confident, resilient adult dogs. I hope that if anyone is not sure whether their dog has beautiful nerve structure they should assume it has a normal level of inbuilt fear of the unknown seeing as it is highly adaptive and all, and that it follows the same rules of socialisation as the majority of dogs known to science. Scott and Fuller did a fantastic series of experiments on this back in the 1960s that to this day we still use as a guide in socialisation regimes. When someone does something better and more comprehensive incorporating genetic nerve structure I'll let you all know.

[Santo66]

Hold on, I need more explicit information...

Which PART exactly of the nerve results in never spooking at new experiences? Ever. Is there a specific length of axons that promotes novelty seeking behaviour?

All actual scientific evidence that I know of suggests socialisation is extremely important. If this animal with perfect nerve structure exists that does not need socialisation, than hooray for it. The rest of the world, however, will need to socialise their dogs at a young age for really confident, resilient adult dogs. I hope that if anyone is not sure whether their dog has beautiful nerve structure they should assume it has a normal level of inbuilt fear of the unknown seeing as it is highly adaptive and all, and that it follows the same rules of socialisation as the majority of dogs known to science. Scott and Fuller did a fantastic series of experiments on this back in the 1960s that to this day we still use as a guide in socialisation regimes. When someone does something better and more comprehensive incorporating genetic nerve structure I'll let you all know.

Your scientific evidence was more than likely the result of data collection that included dogs of less than ideal nerve strength however, once a dog has been through socialisation regimes, the socialisation on that dog can't be undone to confirm if it was the socialisation that produced the confident resilient adult dog or the genetic nerve structure of the dog it's self so there is no "real" scientific measure that isn't based upon speculation or guess work.

In working dog breeding programs where the dog is required to perform a role beyond that of a family pet where nerve structure is paramount.......guide dogs for the blind is one role that requires high strength of nerve, many lines of working dogs are purposely not socialised to evaluate the raw the genetics of the adult dog that socialisation can mask until the dog is subject to pressure where genetics will overpower learned behaviour. That is for example, a guide dog genetically scared of traffic that has been coaxed through acceptance of traffic by exposure (socialisation) until a truck turns the corner with noisy air brakes loading the dog with pressure beyond what it's socialisation regime catered for, the dog will revert back to it's genetic fear and spook with potential devastating results for the blind person holding the harness and the dog. In this example I ask you this Corvus:

Do you want I guide dog of genetic nerve weakness with fear of traffic masked by the effects of socialisation or a genetically stronger nerved dog who instinctively doesn't care about traffic and has no fear of it?

Genetic nerve strength in puppies unfolds early and is easily seen and for the pet dog people rarely test for it and if they do and pup fails is because the puppy isn't used to the environment with the misunderstanding that exposure in socialisation will fix it where the truth of the matter is that the puppy is genetically spooky and a poor candidate in a pet role..........ultimately the production of a spooky puppy is the result of ancestry genotype which effectively is a breeding problem from breeding on the wrong dogs, a common problem found in show dog breeding's, lets improve conformation using a dog who's scared of gun fire in a gun dog breed results in Golden Retriever's petrified of thunder.......excellent

A strong nerved puppy will investigate the unknown where spooky puppies will fear it......there is a massive difference between the two behaviours. Socialisation and exposure in working puppies more identifies genetic fault than creating better dogs from the process. There are plenty of dogs out there with strong nerve structure, it's not a rare occurrence although weak nerve is sadly becoming more accepted with the emphasis placed on socialisation and training to try and fix it.

Further more to this, my best working GSD who's the most environmentally stable wasn't socialised at all in the critical period due to a compromised immune system from a viral illness at 8 weeks old.......my own fear of Parvo kept him isolated, however his genotype was strong in nerve and his phenotype replicates that of his parents with excellent environmental soundness.........I chose a pup from that litter because of parental stability and environmental hardness, where puppy traits were exactly the same :)My least environmentally stable who were heavily socialised and I have had a couple like that, can still spook and show aggression towards non threats the same as their parental phenotypes.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Santo66

[Leah82]

Your scientific evidence was more than likely the result of data collection that included dogs of less than ideal nerve strength however, once a dog has been through socialisation regimes, the socialisation on that dog can't be undone to confirm if it was the socialisation that produced the confident resilient adult dog or the genetic nerve structure of the dog it's self so there is no "real" scientific measure that isn't based upon speculation or guess work.

I think what you are referring to is essentially breeding for temperament and absolutely nothing to do with the dogs nervous system.

There is no correlation between the nervous system (or nerve structure as you put it) and nervousness in dogs. Signs of nervousness all come from the brain and while genetics may take a part in whether a dog has a nervous predisposition the greatest scientists are still trying to work out whether nurture or nature has the strongest impact on the development of our personalities.

If they can't figure it out with people I'm not sure they will have gotten anywhere with dogs, who after all can't talk to you about their childhood :p

[Darien]

Your scientific evidence was more than likely the result of data collection that included dogs of less than ideal nerve strength however, once a dog has been through socialisation regimes, the socialisation on that dog can't be undone to confirm if it was the socialisation that produced the confident resilient adult dog or the genetic nerve structure of the dog it's self so there is no "real" scientific measure that isn't based upon speculation or guess work.

I think what you are referring to is essentially breeding for temperament and absolutely nothing to do with the dogs nervous system.

There is no correlation between the nervous system (or nerve structure as you put it) and nervousness in dogs. Signs of nervousness all come from the brain and while genetics may take a part in whether a dog has a nervous predisposition the greatest scientists are still trying to work out whether nurture or nature has the strongest impact on the development of our personalities.

If they can't figure it out with people I'm not sure they will have gotten anywhere with dogs, who after all can't talk to you about their childhood :p

Thank you Leah82, I couldn't have said it better myself :)

Perhaps Santo66 you need to find a better word for comaprison because as Leah82 and Corvus have stated, the nervous system is a competely different ball game. By saying a dog/person has 'nerves of steel' it is merely an expression and doesn't actually relate to the nerves at all.

[corvus]

Your scientific evidence was more than likely the result of data collection that included dogs of less than ideal nerve strength

Yes, exactly my point. Because those studies have been done on populations of dogs, which include dogs that do not meet this apparent ideal nerve strength. In fact, most of them do not, it would seem. Thus, please do socialise your dogs, people.

however, once a dog has been through socialisation regimes, the socialisation on that dog can't be undone to confirm if it was the socialisation that produced the confident resilient adult dog or the genetic nerve structure of the dog it's self so there is no "real" scientific measure that isn't based upon speculation or guess work.

Read Scott and Fuller's book before you get too carried away. It's still in print and seriously, it is full of fascinating data and insights. Anyone interested in dog genetics and behaviour should have a look. I don't think their methods are suspect. It's the best you can do without finding genetic clones. There's a reason why it is still considered a primary source of literature. No one has ever topped that study.

In this example I ask you this Corvus:

Do you want I guide dog of genetic nerve weakness with fear of traffic masked by the effects of socialisation or a genetically stronger nerved dog who instinctively doesn't care about traffic and has no fear of it?

As far as I know they socialise their dogs, as do assistance dogs. Extensively. Security sector, not so much. Military and police, to a small degree if I understood the trainers I have spoken to.

What you are describing I assume is in personality research called a behaviour suite or a super-trait. We have to be careful with these things and test whether certain behaviours really do statistically more often occur together, and that in no way says anything about how genetically inheritable they are. Evidence suggests it depends on the behaviours and the breed. I could write a great deal about the subject. And have published papers on it, as it happens. The bottom line, though, is that the concept of 'nerve' is probably dangerously broad and over-simplified in my opinion, and subject to massive confirmation bias. Plus it is annoying as hell to hear non-descriptive and misleading terms like that in use.

[Santo66]

Your scientific evidence was more than likely the result of data collection that included dogs of less than ideal nerve strength however, once a dog has been through socialisation regimes, the socialisation on that dog can't be undone to confirm if it was the socialisation that produced the confident resilient adult dog or the genetic nerve structure of the dog it's self so there is no "real" scientific measure that isn't based upon speculation or guess work.

I think what you are referring to is essentially breeding for temperament and absolutely nothing to do with the dogs nervous system.

There is no correlation between the nervous system (or nerve structure as you put it) and nervousness in dogs. Signs of nervousness all come from the brain and while genetics may take a part in whether a dog has a nervous predisposition the greatest scientists are still trying to work out whether nurture or nature has the strongest impact on the development of our personalities.

If they can't figure it out with people I'm not sure they will have gotten anywhere with dogs, who after all can't talk to you about their childhood :p

Thank you Leah82, I couldn't have said it better myself :)

Perhaps Santo66 you need to find a better word for comaprison because as Leah82 and Corvus have stated, the nervous system is a competely different ball game. By saying a dog/person has 'nerves of steel' it is merely an expression and doesn't actually relate to the nerves at all.

You know what I am talking about when referring to a dog's nerve as do 99.9% of anyone else involved in dogs from breeding/training aspect :laugh:

[Santo66]

Your scientific evidence was more than likely the result of data collection that included dogs of less than ideal nerve strength

Yes, exactly my point. Because those studies have been done on populations of dogs, which include dogs that do not meet this apparent ideal nerve strength. In fact, most of them do not, it would seem. Thus, please do socialise your dogs, people.

however, once a dog has been through socialisation regimes, the socialisation on that dog can't be undone to confirm if it was the socialisation that produced the confident resilient adult dog or the genetic nerve structure of the dog it's self so there is no "real" scientific measure that isn't based upon speculation or guess work.

Read Scott and Fuller's book before you get too carried away. It's still in print and seriously, it is full of fascinating data and insights. Anyone interested in dog genetics and behaviour should have a look. I don't think their methods are suspect. It's the best you can do without finding genetic clones. There's a reason why it is still considered a primary source of literature. No one has ever topped that study.

In this example I ask you this Corvus:

Do you want I guide dog of genetic nerve weakness with fear of traffic masked by the effects of socialisation or a genetically stronger nerved dog who instinctively doesn't care about traffic and has no fear of it?

As far as I know they socialise their dogs, as do assistance dogs. Extensively. Security sector, not so much. Military and police, to a small degree if I understood the trainers I have spoken to.

What you are describing I assume is in personality research called a behaviour suite or a super-trait. We have to be careful with these things and test whether certain behaviours really do statistically more often occur together, and that in no way says anything about how genetically inheritable they are. Evidence suggests it depends on the behaviours and the breed. I could write a great deal about the subject. And have published papers on it, as it happens. The bottom line, though, is that the concept of 'nerve' is probably dangerously broad and over-simplified in my opinion, and subject to massive confirmation bias. Plus it is annoying as hell to hear non-descriptive and misleading terms like that in use.

Corvus, regardless of your liking to scientific data that can change depending on which way the wind blows........how many scientific examples have been given as a link to cancer on that alone I prefer practical analysis in some instances over theory. The fact is, a socialised dog cannot be un-socialised end of story, that is the effect of socialisation cannot be erased from a dog to start again with the same dog un-socialised to record the difference. Furthermore, I could make up socialisation regime and show my un-socialised dog as an example of the result of that regime as the dog displays extreme environmental stability, yet it's all bullshit, the environmental stability resides in both the genotype and parental phenotype of that breeding, nothing to do with socialisation.

My point is that there is becoming too much emphasis placed on socialisation to cover up poor breeding's as every second behavioural issue is attributed to a lack of or incorrect socialisation regimes, from my experience of most behavioural issues stem from breeding the wrong dogs. Socialisation for me is a fault finding exercise when exposing dogs to the unknown........I didn't say not to socialise dogs, I said genetically stable dogs don't need it and when a fault is found during the socialisation process IME, although socialisation and training can mask the behaviour, if the dog is subject to enough pressure, they will revert back to their instinctive behaviour.

[fbaudry]

???? Santo why don't you step out of this thread quietly before you make a fool of yourself even more.... You have clearly no idea...

[corvus]

My point is that there is becoming too much emphasis placed on socialisation to cover up poor breeding's as every second behavioural issue is attributed to a lack of or incorrect socialisation regimes, from my experience of most behavioural issues stem from breeding the wrong dogs. Socialisation for me is a fault finding exercise when exposing dogs to the unknown........I didn't say not to socialise dogs, I said genetically stable dogs don't need it and when a fault is found during the socialisation process IME, although socialisation and training can mask the behaviour, if the dog is subject to enough pressure, they will revert back to their instinctive behaviour.

My point was that there is no scientific data to support the idea that socialisation even CAN cover up "poor breeding". Or that "good breeding" results in dogs that don't need it. Your point about the nature of the data collected is not really relevant in this case. There are a lot of very good data, as I have already said. To me, identifying dogs as "strong nerved" or "weak nerved" is attributing complex behaviour to a purely genetic origin. Well hey, now that's it genetic you're absolved of any responsibility for it appearing in the first place if you don't like it, and any responsibility for the failure of behaviour modification and training to address the problem. There's no way your claim that it's entirely genetic can be disproved because the technology to do so isn't available yet. You are nice and cosy safe in your belief.

Meanwhile, what happens to the poor dog you've written off as having 'weak nerve structure' or some such? Whatever the reason for its behavioural tendencies, those tendencies have to be dealt with and the dog's welfare is of utmost importance. I applaud Darien for recognising their responsibilities and taking the often frowned-upon step of trying medical support. Whether the dog has an ideal temperament or not is entirely beside the point. Whether most dogs have 'weak nerve' or 'strong nerve' structure is entirely beside the point. There are dogs out there that need some help. It may be temporary or it may be ongoing, and chalking those dogs up as genetically flawed doesn't help them. Early socialisation may. And medication may.

I hope that Misty gets some relief soon from the Prozac. The early side effects can be daunting, but stick it out and hopefully she will be much better off in a month or so. Watch out for nausea in particular as it's very common. If she doesn't already eat twice a day, it may help her out to feed her twice a day.

ETA That's the proverbial 'you'. I don't know what Santo thinks and my comments are not aimed directly at them.

Edited August 11, 2013 by corvus

[Aidan3]

Your scientific evidence was more than likely the result of data collection that included dogs of less than ideal nerve strength however, once a dog has been through socialisation regimes, the socialisation on that dog can't be undone to confirm if it was the socialisation that produced the confident resilient adult dog or the genetic nerve structure of the dog it's self so there is no "real" scientific measure that isn't based upon speculation or guess work.

Let's say we take two groups, picked at random, half are socialised and the other half are sequestered. We find a difference between the groups that is unlikely to be due to chance. Is that speculation or guess work?

[betsy]

To the OP - I have a good friend with a pound dog that is very anxious. They started prozac on vet advice and have certainly noticed a difference in her behaviour when she is around 'strangers'. They omitted the medication for a few weeks (actually wondering if it was making any difference) and it was quite obvious the dog was worse without medication.

Good luck with it.

[hankdog]

I started on one and a half tablets, apparently they will be very sleepy for the first few weeks anyway but it went on for four weeks so I lessened the dose a quarter tablet at a time. One a day is good but 3/4 is too little. I have his liver functions tested at 3 months and then 6 months mostly because I just panic anyway but it's nice to know he's ok.

[Santo66]

�� Santo why don't you step out of this thread quietly before you make a fool of yourself even more.... You have clearly no idea...

It's a discussion, no need to take on board my view of the situation.........if you have a better debate angle don't be shy let's hear it

My point was that there is no scientific data to support the idea that socialisation even CAN cover up "poor breeding".

I think the fact that socialisation can effectively reduce the incidence of fear aggression proves that well enough.......socialisation I am regarding as exposure to environmental challenges not a free for all at puppy classes.

Let's say we take two groups, picked at random, half are socialised and the other half are sequestered. We find a difference between the groups that is unlikely to be due to chance. Is that speculation or guess work?

I think you would find similar behaviours in both groups at random select. IMHO you would need groups of near similar genotype and phenotype for half a chance at legitimate resolve.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Santo66

[Darien]

To the OP - I have a good friend with a pound dog that is very anxious. They started prozac on vet advice and have certainly noticed a difference in her behaviour when she is around 'strangers'. They omitted the medication for a few weeks (actually wondering if it was making any difference) and it was quite obvious the dog was worse without medication.

Good luck with it.

Misty ison 5mgs daily, as of yet I haven't noticed a difference, but it's way too early as it's only been 6 days. She really doesn't like my OH, she rarely goes near him and growls and barks at him. He gives her treats, which she will take, but run off with them and 'hovers' around him when food is involved. On the odd accassion she will jump up and say hello to him, but the majority of the time she growls and barks We have had her for 2 months now, normally I would have thought that that would have been long enough for settling in. She shows no interest in Kiska what so ever, where as Kiska would love to play....not that she can at the moment anyway

It's heart breaking to watch her pace and stress out I didn't consider Misty a rescue dog, but she is and I will never again buy an breeder's dog that has been kenneled I just don't understand it.

[YippeeGirl]

Our two cats are on prozac (I know they are not dogs but their problems were also anxiety related) and it has worked wonders for them.

In my experience it has just taken the edge off without making them appear lethargic or 'drugged up'. Anxiety in pets can be so difficult to cope with. Medication definitely has its place in managing it, and can sometimes just give you that little bit of ground you need to turn the problem around.

Hopefully, you find this is the case with your lovely girl.

Not sure how long it is supposed to take for the prozac to work. I think the vet said it may take a few weeks in our cats before we would see results, but I'm not sure if the same applies to dogs.

[Kavik]

The security guards I know do recommend extensive socialisation.

While this discussion on socialisation and nerves and genetics is very interesting, it is not useful to the OP, who has to deal with the behaviour regardless of its origin.

[corvus]

My point was that there is no scientific data to support the idea that socialisation even CAN cover up "poor breeding".

I think the fact that socialisation can effectively reduce the incidence of fear aggression proves that well enough..

Only if you assume that a) fear aggression is entirely genetic in the first place, and b) there is a large proportion of dogs with genetic fear aggression in the population. There is no evidence to support the adoption of either assumption, and plenty to support the rejection of both. Every indication is that it's a fair bit more complicated than that.

You should expect to see the full effects of Prozac after 5-6 weeks of treatment. In the first few weeks you may find Misty is lethargic or even more anxious than usual. Take it particularly easy with her while her system is adapting. It should improve pretty quickly. It is very distressing to see dogs who are so anxious they can't settle down and rest or are constantly looking for danger. You have done the right thing, and hopefully it does the trick.

[hankdog]

That dose sounds light on to me, if I remember from reading it was a suggested dose if 1mg per kilo body weight. Jake started on 30mg daily but is now on 20mg per day. You might want to check with the vet?

ETA...I think the nature vs nurture debate is a good one to have and there's a wealth if knowledge on this forum. Can we start a new topic and continue?

Edited August 12, 2013 by hankdog

[Rosetta]

To the OP - I have a good friend with a pound dog that is very anxious. They started prozac on vet advice and have certainly noticed a difference in her behaviour when she is around 'strangers'. They omitted the medication for a few weeks (actually wondering if it was making any difference) and it was quite obvious the dog was worse without medication.

Good luck with it.

Misty ison 5mgs daily, as of yet I haven't noticed a difference, but it's way too early as it's only been 6 days. She really doesn't like my OH, she rarely goes near him and growls and barks at him. He gives her treats, which she will take, but run off with them and 'hovers' around him when food is involved. On the odd accassion she will jump up and say hello to him, but the majority of the time she growls and barks We have had her for 2 months now, normally I would have thought that that would have been long enough for settling in. She shows no interest in Kiska what so ever, where as Kiska would love to play....not that she can at the moment anyway

It's heart breaking to watch her pace and stress out I didn't consider Misty a rescue dog, but she is and I will never again buy an breeder's dog that has been kenneled I just don't understand it.

I sympathise as I have a dog with separation anxiety who came from RSPCA originally. The trouble is once you have them you get emotionally attached and then begins the torturous journey to try and find some solution to the anxiety. There is often no cure but people manage around the problem. I think the Prozac is a good idea for Misty and you may have to experiment with the dosage to find what works.

Did the breeder give you much background information about her? Has she had much to do with men before? It sounds like she is very uncertain of your OH - perhaps she will come around with time. The breeder may not have realised how badly Misty would react to being taken from her "pack" in a kennel situation and placed in a home. All the more reason for people buying a "mature" dog from a breeder to opt for one raised in a home environment if possible.