Breeding Dogs Today.

[Kirislin]

I've only bred 2 litters of my own so far, the most recent being almost 9 years ago now. Recently a friend asked me to be his backup and midwife for his litter of Italian Greyhounds. I thought, I'd better brush up on the pregnant bitch and whelping so went to my local library as they'd had an excellent book when I bred my whippet litters.

There was not one single book that had anything to do with breeding. Nothing.

The litter was born on Saturday, and we had dramas. We got the bitch to the suburban vet (Box Hill) with one puppy born in the car on the way and then 2 born in the vet clinic. There was an older vet there who was very good and reassured us that all was now going well, but the younger vet was fascinated and had NEVER seen a puppy being born!

It's got me thinking about how much has changed in the 9 years since I bred my last litter. Is it because most people get their dogs now from puppy farmers? I really dont know, but the change in attitude, knowledge and availabilty and access to information has really surprised me.

[kelpiecuddles]

Personally I wonder whether it's a symptom of well off families with high achieving kids living in inner city areas and not getting those sort of experiences in their home lives. Most of the people i knew through my ag course didn't even bat an eyelid seeing an animal give birth but they were from a different demographic to a lot of the school mates I had that went on to vet.

[espinay2]

Demographics perhaps. Certainly I do notice some new 'city bred' vets don't seem to have the breadth of practical animal experience. I clearly recall the disbelief expressed in 'talk' when a new young vet in our rural area 'had never owned a pet'. Must admit that did concern me and I will admit to avoiding them when making appointments for that reason (though to be fair he seems to be becoming quite a reasonable avian vet from what I understand which isn't an easy field).

also the amount of Information available now on the Internet. I have noticed libraries are narrowing their focus a lot when it comes to book subject matter. Local libraries simply Don't seem to carry the range of subjects they used to.

[Kirislin]

Demographics perhaps. Certainly I do notice some new 'city bred' vets don't seem to have the breadth of practical animal experience. I clearly recall the disbelief expressed in 'talk' when a new young vet in our rural area 'had never owned a pet'. Must admit that did concern me and I will admit to avoiding them when making appointments for that reason (though to be fair he seems to be becoming quite a reasonable avian vet from what I understand which isn't an easy field).

also the amount of Information available now on the Internet. I have noticed libraries are narrowing their focus a lot when it comes to book subject matter. Local libraries simply Don't seem to carry the range of subjects they used to.

I find this a real pity. For me getting the info on the internet isn't always convenient. I dont have a lap top computer but with a book I remember taking it to bed and reading it thoroughly.

[BrigadoonRose]

also the amount of Information available now on the Internet. I have noticed libraries are narrowing their focus a lot when it comes to book subject matter. Local libraries simply Don't seem to carry the range of subjects they used to.

This. I *love* the amount of info that's available on the Internet, although of course it needs to be viewed with a critical eye. Does your library have computers/Internet access you can use? Also, did you talk to the librarian about what information you're after? They can often help source books from other libraries both within and outside their network

[Tazar]

The dog next door had puppies many moons ago and I was lucky enough to watch, I still remember it clearly and I was under 10 years old. Don't think many people would get that experience now.

I find it a bit strange that a vet hasn't seen it though? It is a pretty significant component of animal care, especially since generally vets cover all things.

[Podengo]

I have been lucky, despite having never bred a litter, I have witnessed 2 litters being born and a C-section (as well as a live mating, a transcervical AI and a surgical AI :laugh:). I can't imagine how any vet would not have been exposed to that sort of experience!

[kelpiecuddles]

I assisted in a c-section once. Sadly it didn't have a happy ending but it was a very interesting operation. Sadly a lot of the kids I went through school with just wanted to be a vet because 'they had the marks', not because it was their dream in life. I would have made a great vet but I was a lazy student in highschool and didn't get a high enough TER to get in, despite the fact that I could have if I'd tried .

[Sandra777]

Over the years I have had many new-ish vets who have never seen a natural birth - but if you think about it, how many people take their bitch to the vet if she's having no issues so when are they going to get to see these things? A number have sat in on a whelping for the experience.

I have also had the horrifying experience of coming across a vet who had been practicing for 5 years and had never treated an entire male or female dog - now that blew my socks off!

[Jed]

Many vets have never seen pups born. Many vets graduate with the idea that dog breeders aren't up to much. I remember years ago, the vet who came to the whelping cast one just-born unmoving pup aside "it's dead".

I resuscitated it, and she was fascinated didn't know that you could do that.

Importand to find a cooperative and knowledgable "breeders' vet"

[puglvr]

With my first pug litter I was making my way to my mentors but had to go to the vet to get some oxytocin.

The first pup was born in the car, when we got to the vet's she set her up in a room to finish whelping. The reason, she had three student vets and

Said this will be the ideal lesson for them.

[sandgrubber]

I'd strongly recommend the three books by Myra Savant Harris. She is an RN by trade but was brought up in a dog breeding family and breeds dogs herself. Can't agree with everything she says...eg, her version of pack structure is full of mythology....and I wish she gave more references. However you can't do better for hands on experience in both the canine and human reproduction fields...and for transporting ideas from human to canine repro. She is firmly anti-Caesarian, and gives good advice on techniques solve problems such as the stuck puppy, that often drive people into the vet for an emergency C-section.

If your local library doesn't have the books you want, PUT IN REQUESTS!!!!!! It's the squeaky wheel that gets greased.

While previous generations had more hands on experience, they also accepted much higher rates of puppy, and bitch, mortality.

Edited August 9, 2013 by sandgrubber

[WreckitWhippet]

I'm fortunate that my four vets are all local and are all of a farming back ground, they have a huge amount of hands on experience and are very accepting of what I know and what I can do as a breeder before I require their possible intervention.

I can pick up whatever necessities I think I need from them prior to any whelping.

We have a great relationship, they see me when they need to and are more than happy to discuss situations ( whelping ) on the phone and over the years I've never needed to take a bitch to them ( touch wood ) as all bitches in whelp have had their babies without complications.

[BlackJaq]

This is an interesting topic! We have a lot of BYBs and pig dog breeders who seem to use vet services for their dogs more than I would have thought (I might have been a little judgemental) as well as some pure bred breeders and my vet works lot with stock as well, so they have a lot of experience. I have never bred a litter, so I cannot say how good they are, but I am happy with their other services so far.

I have to mention we live pretty rural, things might be different in city practices.

[Kirislin]

This is an interesting topic! We have a lot of BYBs and pig dog breeders who seem to use vet services for their dogs more than I would have thought (I might have been a little judgemental) as well as some pure bred breeders and my vet works lot with stock as well, so they have a lot of experience. I have never bred a litter, so I cannot say how good they are, but I am happy with their other services so far.

I have to mention we live pretty rural, things might be different in city practices.

I think this might have something to do with it, but I was still surprised that the vet had never seen a birth. I thought maybe even in their training they would have got the opportunity. It was a suburban vet we had to go to on Saturday.

[BlackJaq]

Well, I guess there are a LOT of people studying to become vets.. Unless they start breeding dogs specifically for the learning experience (which I don't think our society now would find acceptable), you'd have to find a lot of dogs giving birth at just the right time, to be able to show all the students.. And it's not exactly something that you can schedule to happen during class...

I don't know anything about the uni vet courses, so I have no idea how they would go about organizing this...

[espinay2]

This is an interesting topic! We have a lot of BYBs and pig dog breeders who seem to use vet services for their dogs more than I would have thought (I might have been a little judgemental) as well as some pure bred breeders and my vet works lot with stock as well, so they have a lot of experience. I have never bred a litter, so I cannot say how good they are, but I am happy with their other services so far.

I have to mention we live pretty rural, things might be different in city practices.

Re hunting dog breeders. My eyes were opened a bit recently when I found out that there are some that are importing frozen semen from overseas (such as the US) and doing planned AI breedings to improve their lines - and using repro vets to assist them. Not just a case of throwing any dog together and letting them do their thing in some cases at least.

[Nekhbet]

Demographics perhaps. Certainly I do notice some new 'city bred' vets don't seem to have the breadth of practical animal experience. I clearly recall the disbelief expressed in 'talk' when a new young vet in our rural area 'had never owned a pet'.

I started the Vet Science degree at Melbourne, I went to uni with people who had never owned an animal before and some refused to actually touch some species, especially large animals as they were smelly, dirty, gross etc. Problem is the full fee system, they expected a lot of money per year up front to go to uni (yes, even Australian students) and hence when my loans dried up I had to discontinue. As one girl said, Dad's not updating the Mercedes this year so I can go to uni :D

I know work experience is encouraged but it's nothing special. If they got together with some breeders, kennels etc it wouldn't be hard to have students be present at a birth. It's just not that important at uni. Like birds, reptiles, fish, nutrition ...

[Linda K]

that is why it is so ludicrous that the Vic DEPI rules have us having to have all manner of things signed off by a vet - I know more than my local vet about my bred of choice, yet under this plan, I have to do what he says, and he can have a say on whether or not my cats are worthy of being bred with? No, that is why I go 1 hour to a cat specialist that does know what he is on about. But even then, he does not know what my breeding goals are, no is he familiar with the breed standard, so how is he meant to know whether one cat is better for breeding than another re the standard?

[BrigadoonRose]

and some refused to actually touch some species, especially large animals as they were smelly, dirty, gross etc.

Maybe work experience at a country vet *before* starting the degree should be compulsory. For the most part they see a bit of everything (well, maybe not so many hamsters). Preg testing a cow would be a great reality check ;)