Can Electric Pulse Collars Be Used Humanely

[Aidan3]

Is there any evidence that a dog trained with an e-collar is more reliable than a dog trained without one?

An infinite number of solutions exist to this problem. Reliability is dependent upon so many factors, we would need to introduce constraints to find a solution - and no-one seems willing to agree upon those. I'm yet to find a study of snake avoidance training. Studies of sheep avoidance training offer mixed results.

[rubyroo]

I'm having this argument with my husband now . He bought this collar for our 2 as he wants to be able to walk them off lead through the bush and have them stay a certain distance near him . Having no real luck with their recall, not 100% and they are terriers so one sniff and they are off . For Me it's the thought of how it would affect them ,but I know he would never ever take it too far ,it just doesn't sit well with me ...

Really struggling here as my heart says no and my head just doesn't know :-( we have had a few really big fights over it, he has researched it for hrs and I will admit I have not .. Probably too scared to maybe ... :-( I will read with interest this thread.

Just noticed this topic here as well as training/obedience section.

Your dogs must understand the command before you use the ecollar, it is only a reinforcer. They won't understand what the stimulation is for if they don't know what is required of them. It is a life saving tool and if researched properly has endless benefits. Good luck

[korbin13]

I do a lot of bush walking/trail running with my dogs, the e collar is a saviour for me. I can reliably walk/run both of them together and call them off of bunnies and roos. And once off a snake that had it's head raised when I noticed one of the dogs going for it

Maybe I could have taught them through other methods but realistically how long would it take for me to train two dogs to not chase a roo or a bunny when they were together? I wasn't only dealing with prey drive but also pack drive.

Can I also add, they are not cheap, so it's not like most people are going to just buy them without a bit of thought.

[Weasels]

Thanks for the replies Huski & Aidan (and I think inadvertantly Corvus, since we seemed to post at the same time :) ). Honestly it would take a huge amount for me to get past even the risk of mechanical malfunction with an e-collar to consider them, and my dogs are almost certainly going to be in close proximity to snakes this summer. I'm inclined to agree with not relying on any training for important stuff over supervision and management. That said, our current training keeps them clear from sheep, cows, lizards, horses and cars on a daily basis so I guess we'll start with that.

[rubyroo]

Shaking my head in disbelief at just how many of you think an e-collar is ok to use on dogs. Its NOT ok ! Poor bloody dogs.

Neither is a steel cap boot, or a lump of wood, or being banished from family time, in the hands of an idiot. Please do some thorough research into the positive benefits of this training tool and how it could save an animals life before you come to this conclusion.

[rubyroo]

I do a lot of bush walking/trail running with my dogs, the e collar is a saviour for me. I can reliably walk/run both of them together and call them off of bunnies and roos. And once off a snake that had it's head raised when I noticed one of the dogs going for it

Maybe I could have taught them through other methods but realistically how long would it take for me to train two dogs to not chase a roo or a bunny when they were together? I wasn't only dealing with prey drive but also pack drive.

Can I also add, they are not cheap, so it's not like most people are going to just buy them without a bit of thought.

I really have the pack drive problem with the boys and there are so many roos at the moment. Not easy trying to train two dogs, especially if their collars run off the one receiver They just have to walk with me until I have scanned every inch of the paddock. The collar has saved many roos(sometimes their drive is too strong and nothing will stop them), and snake issues. So they are on a real short leash (so to speak) at the moment. We are now experiencing problems with wild pigs, they haven't made it through the back fence but only a matter of time, so what then?

[Aidan3]

I'm inclined to agree with not relying on any training for important stuff over supervision and management. That said, our current training keeps them clear from sheep, cows, lizards, horses and cars on a daily basis so I guess we'll start with that.

I've never had access to snakes to do any sort of training to avoid them, and instead have relied reducing my risk through avoiding off-leash activity in the bush during summer and a strong recall.

One trick that I did use with my old GSD, who had a lot of prey drive, was to toss rocks into the bushes without her seeing me do it. This created a noise which triggered her orienting reflex, she would go to sniff, nothing would be there. Eventually she learned to ignore rustles in the undergrowth.

[OSoSwift]

My dogs are under very close supervision. I have a dog proof yard ( as much as I can make it)so far I have been lucky, just today while looking to the right as the dogs honed in on something I missed a snake that was slightly to the left and laying very still. Luckily the dogs were on leads and I saw it before Lewis stepped oevr it, they dogs did get hoicked back but it scared crap out of me.

I try to avoid snakes also but when you can open your back door and step on one it sometimes make them a bit hard to avoid.

The only reason we have considered using this method on our young working dog is he will be out working in the paddocks all through the year and he will come across them. I don't want to have to rely on him being too busy working and hope he doesn't see them. He has been taught leave it.

[korbin13]

I do a lot of bush walking/trail running with my dogs, the e collar is a saviour for me. I can reliably walk/run both of them together and call them off of bunnies and roos. And once off a snake that had it's head raised when I noticed one of the dogs going for it

Maybe I could have taught them through other methods but realistically how long would it take for me to train two dogs to not chase a roo or a bunny when they were together? I wasn't only dealing with prey drive but also pack drive.

Can I also add, they are not cheap, so it's not like most people are going to just buy them without a bit of thought.

I really have the pack drive problem with the boys and there are so many roos at the moment. Not easy trying to train two dogs, especially if their collars run off the one receiver They just have to walk with me until I have scanned every inch of the paddock. The collar has saved many roos(sometimes their drive is too strong and nothing will stop them), and snake issues. So they are on a real short leash (so to speak) at the moment. We are now experiencing problems with wild pigs, they haven't made it through the back fence but only a matter of time, so what then?

I trained mine separately until they were solid and then went back to low distraction recalls with the two of them and then built up the distractions. Same as I did when training them separately. I also have the two collars with one receiver. I actually ended up using liquid paper and a marker to mark their initials next to the buttons.

[_PL_]

It wouldn't be that hard to be licensed to use one, like they do with guns.

Have you actually seen how little it takes to get a gun license? One open book test basically telling you not to point the tubular open end at your own face.

I was more meaning the registration of the collar itself. Like firearms. You may correct me on that one if I'm interpreting the system wrongly. :)

Clearly e-collars are not for a beginner IMHO. So if owners want to use one they need more guidance than what's on the back of the box.

[corvus]

Honestly it would take a huge amount for me to get past even the risk of mechanical malfunction with an e-collar to consider them

One of the issues addressed by Blackwell and Casey was the variation in the electronic pulse experienced by the dog. As has long been suspected by many, it was kind of disturbingly large. If you figure out a working level, there's no guarantee every time you administer it will feel the same to the dog.

They also found plenty of people completely ignored the instructions that came with the collar and started at the highest level or used the highest level every time. Yah, you can misuse any tool, but flogging a dog provides a fair bit more feedback than pressing a button, and is probably a fair bit less ambiguous as well.

[Tazar]

Studies of sheep avoidance training offer mixed results.

Aidan2 - do you have any further info on where I could locate these studies?

thanks

[BCNut]

I don't see how an e-collar can protect a dog from a snake. No e-collar can stop any wild animal from pursuing a dog.

That's a clever rebuttal. Use your words.

I don't see how an e-collar can protect a dog from a snake. No e-collar can stop any wild animal from pursuing a dog.

You are trying to stop the dog going near the snake.

I understand the premise of the training. No amount of +P or +R will guarantee 100% protection from a snake. A snake will strike out if harassed. I attended a conference presented by a toxinology professor where snake behaviour was discussed and demonstrated at length. Snakes will pursue a threat if said threat is active - they are respondent to body language. The person on a bushwalk who shrieks and dances around gets bitten. The person who stands still and lets the snake slither by not a threat and is ignored. I know which one is more representative of a dog's behaviour when they find a new 'thing'.

E-collars aren't a substitute for adequate guardianship of a dog and a solid 'leave it'. If you're a person that leaves your dog in the backyard of a snake infested area unsupervised whilst you're out - thats your business but the only way to truly be certain your dog will be safe is to leave him/her inside.

I've watched my neighbours dog start out as what you would expect from a normal, high energy border collie cross pup and slowly but surely turned in a D-D and D-H aggressive bundle of nerves and energy from one of these devices. Whether they're used 'appropriately' (which I don't believe there is a humane application for e-collars - lets put one on your neck and pump it up) or not; it's just an excuse for being a lazy trainer and being half arsed in your approach to the keeping of dogs.

Want your dogs to stay with you off leash? Use a long lead and proof your recalls in as many environments as you can. Want your dog to stay in your yard? Get your property fenced appropriately. I don't see how an e-collar can protect a dog from a snake. No e-collar can stop any wild animal from pursuing a dog.

Why is it just e-collars that people think can be mis-used?

If the collar is being "pumped up" and causing the dog distress it is not being used properly. Abuse is in the user not the tool. End of story.

1) I never insinuated that e-collars were the only training tools that are misused.

2) A tool need not be abused to be inhumane.

Are you willing to bet that on a dog worth tens of thousands of dollars in time, breeding and training? I wouldn't. Particularly in dogs that are not just pet temperament either.

Wouldn't bet it on an e-collar either. I'd bet it on having a dog safely crated inside or the provision of adequate supervision.

[Aidan3]

Studies of sheep avoidance training offer mixed results.

Aidan2 - do you have any further info on where I could locate these studies?

thanks

Most of them are stuck behind a pay-wall, but the abstracts are available - and perhaps more revealing, critiques can be found in other articles that cite the sources.

http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?start=0&q=electronic+dog+training+collar+sheep&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5

[huski]

One of the issues addressed by Blackwell and Casey was the variation in the electronic pulse experienced by the dog. As has long been suspected by many, it was kind of disturbingly large. If you figure out a working level, there's no guarantee every time you administer it will feel the same to the dog.

Which is why you should test the working level before using the collar every time.

It's also why e collars are such a good tool, it allows you to find the perfect level for each dog.

They also found plenty of people completely ignored the instructions that came with the collar and started at the highest level or used the highest level every time. Yah, you can misuse any tool, but flogging a dog provides a fair bit more feedback than pressing a button, and is probably a fair bit less ambiguous as well.

"Plenty" of people dialed up the collar to level, say, 100 and just blasted the dog? I have to say I've never come across someone that stupid, though I don't doubt there are lots of idiots out there.

I don't believe that anyone blasting a dog over and over on an e collar would find a lack of feedback from the dog compared to flogging it, in both instances you are abusing the dog, the tool you are using is just different.

Like I said I don't doubt people like that are out there but considering that e collars are quite uncommon here and not readily available cases like that are really rare. People who will abuse a dog will do so regardless of the tool in their hand.

[Aidan3]

I don't know if people necessarily mean to abuse their dog, but just like with check chains and verbal corrections, you do find an extraordinary number of people with poor timing, inconsistent criteria, and vague, unreasonable, or even contradictory expectations. They seem to be completely oblivious to any of these problems, and many even think they are great trainers despite the evidence.

Couple that with the consistent message that "it's only a tickle" (not untrue, but only at the lowest perceptible setting, and this changes as a function of resistance) and you have people oblivious to their dog's avoidance behaviours - the absence of yelps and squeals being all they need to assure them that "it's only a tickle".

I'm currently working with a dog who suffered dreadful mishandling by another trainer and now has a bite history, on top of severe anxiety. I sent the client off to the vet for a physical and to discuss medication. The vet told them to get an e-collar. This dog urinated while he bit their previous trainer, but the vet seems to think a complete novice might do a better job with an e-collar.

[Tazar]

I don't see how an e-collar can protect a dog from a snake. No e-collar can stop any wild animal from pursuing a dog.

That's a clever rebuttal. Use your words.

I don't see how an e-collar can protect a dog from a snake. No e-collar can stop any wild animal from pursuing a dog.

You are trying to stop the dog going near the snake.

I understand the premise of the training. No amount of +P or +R will guarantee 100% protection from a snake. A snake will strike out if harassed. I attended a conference presented by a toxinology professor where snake behaviour was discussed and demonstrated at length. Snakes will pursue a threat if said threat is active - they are respondent to body language. The person on a bushwalk who shrieks and dances around gets bitten. The person who stands still and lets the snake slither by not a threat and is ignored. I know which one is more representative of a dog's behaviour when they find a new 'thing'.E-collars aren't a substitute for adequate guardianship of a dog and a solid 'leave it'. If you're a person that leaves your dog in the backyard of a snake infested area unsupervised whilst you're out - thats your business but the only way to truly be certain your dog will be safe is to leave him/her inside.

I've watched my neighbours dog start out as what you would expect from a normal, high energy border collie cross pup and slowly but surely turned in a D-D and D-H aggressive bundle of nerves and energy from one of these devices. Whether they're used 'appropriately' (which I don't believe there is a humane application for e-collars - lets put one on your neck and pump it up) or not; it's just an excuse for being a lazy trainer and being half arsed in your approach to the keeping of dogs. Want your dogs to stay with you off leash? Use a long lead and proof your recalls in as many environments as you can. Want your dog to stay in your yard? Get your property fenced appropriately. I don't see how an e-collar can protect a dog from a snake. No e-collar can stop any wild animal from pursuing a dog.

Why is it just e-collars that people think can be mis-used? If the collar is being "pumped up" and causing the dog distress it is not being used properly. Abuse is in the user not the tool. End of story.

1) I never insinuated that e-collars were the only training tools that are misused.2) A tool need not be abused to be inhumane.

Are you willing to bet that on a dog worth tens of thousands of dollars in time, breeding and training? I wouldn't. Particularly in dogs that are not just pet temperament either.

Wouldn't bet it on an e-collar either. I'd bet it on having a dog safely crated inside or the provision of adequate supervision.

Guess I used the head banging emoticons to convey my frustration with your post that an e collar won't stop a snake attacking a dog. Maybe ask the original poster if he wants to try one on a snake?

You appear to base your e collar experience on a neighbour, who, from what you say, wrecked his dogs with an e collar. If this was the case then your neighbour clearly did not know how to use one. Keeping a dog away from a random snake, if you live or walk your dogs in an area they are prone, is not inhumane, it is common sense. My experience with snakes is if you leave them alone, they leave you alone, so teaching your dog to stay well clear is best for all.

The type of stim used for general training is so low it cannot be felt by us and causes the dog no pain. Certainly more humane than a jerk on check chain, for example.

[huski]

Aidan I agree a lot of average owners who struggle with timing, reward delivery, inconsistent criteria etc. to be honest when under professional guidance these owners often have the best success with e collars and find them easier to use than correction collars like check chains or prongs and can even find it easier than getting reward delivery right. One benefit of using an e collar is that it removes emotion from it, it separates the owner from being the one to give actually a correction or a verbal cue (pressing a button can be a lot easier for owners to get right than giving a leash correction or even giving a reward).

It's not a fool proof tool but none are, I have honestly seen many average owners learn best with an e collar, we even had one owner crying with joy recently because he could finally have his dog off leash and responding to him and it Made him feel a 1000 x better connected to his dog as it removed the conflict from their relationship when the dog was no longer buggering off and completely ignoring him. He now enjoys his dog so much more and the dog enjoys a lot more freedom.

[Tazar]

Thanks Aidan2 :)

Interesting that in the second year of testing those exhibiting the behaviour had reduced to a quarter, wonder if it would continue to drop if tested again for a third year.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Tazar

[kelpiecuddles]

I'd bet it on having a dog safely crated inside or the provision of adequate supervision.

How does one utilise a farm dog when it has to be kept crated lest it get bitten by a snake? Herding of sheep and cattle rarely takes place with the dog at close enough quarters that the owner would see the snake before the dog did. We could potentially have snakes within a few metres of the house given we live on the back of bushland, I certainly won't be restricting my dogs from the backyard for the rest of their lives just in case. I'd much rather train avoidance if I could, infact we have two pet snakes and I'm quite tempted to do some training at home having read this thread, I don't have access to an e-collar but I'll look in to other options.