Can Electric Pulse Collars Be Used Humanely

[snake catcher]

These are a great idea and work well to stop dogs from attacking wildlife and thus avoid the snakebite that comes with this behaviour.

I realise everyone should train their dog and spend the time on doing so.

But there are a lot of people who own dogs that haven't trained them.

Do these dogs have to potentially get bitten by a snake because the collars are deemed cruel?

I'm having a FB argument so I thought Id make a thread here and get some experienced and expert opinions.

So the main question is, are they ok to use when used properly as the potential for cruelty is certainly there.

[Nekhbet]

The potential for cruelty goes for any item. A stick can be cruel if you whack the dog with it repeatedly, a flat collar can be cruel if you wrench it or hang a dog by it.

The dog needs to learn snakes are off limits, no iffs, buts or hows. If you want to risk your dog with other methods that dont leave a lasting impression, good luck. I know trainers who have very expensive and well trained working dogs, it's the only thing they will use and have found effective. Especially in a working dog that can be so focussed on it's job you need something that immediately brings up a warning if it detects a hint of it.

Remember, cruelty is always in the hands of the human, never the equipment.

[snake catcher]

Thanks for the answer Nekhbet, I am glad to get some confirmation of what I thought.

[melzawelza]

Agree totally with Nekhbet. The most ridiculous this is that e-collars are banned for use in the whole of NSW, so if someone wishes to snake proof their dog and are caught they will be done for animal cruelty. Absolutely ridiculous.

[JulesP]

Well the dog isn't going to find it a pleasant experience but a bit of a zap is probably better than being bitten by a snake.

Pretty much the only time I would use a e-collar is if the dog was doing something that was likely to get it hurt or killed.

Having been an obedience instructor for years I am comfortable with them being restricted the way they are. People can be scarily stupid.

[Tazar]

Agree with Nekhbet.

e Collars are a great tool, not only for avoidance training, but I have seen them used to train dogs for general obedience. Very gentle and more effective compared to many of the other methods around.

Like any tool, it needs to be used correctly and by an experienced handler. Unfortunately there are lots of ignorant people who jump on the 'its cruel' bandwagon with no real understanding of how it works.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Tazar

[Nekhbet]

They're brilliant for general obedience as well. It's not rocket science how to use one on your dog properly, I'm more sick of people constantly calling equipment 'advanced' or 'high potential for harm'. It's rubbish. Most of this equipment was developed so the general owner could train their dog in general obedience or dog sports. Nothing really magical there.

[Cosmolo]

Disagree with you there Nek. I have used e collars and really like them for many different situations. But i do think they are a high risk piece of training equipment for the average person. Alot of people tout the line "when used correctly an XYZ piece of equipment is great"- this is true. But what is the probability of that piece of equipment being used correctly in that persons hands AND what happens to the dog when it is used incorrectly- these are both considerations to me. JMO

[Nekhbet]

It's not hard to teach someone start too low and creep up until you just notice the dog realises a sensation. Most dogs that get an accidental whack which is too high can bounce back fine.

If anyone's stupid enough to crank up the collar and stand there watching their dog peak out, well you shouldn't own a dog.

[Wundahoo]

It's not hard to teach someone start too low and creep up until you just notice the dog realises a sensation. Most dogs that get an accidental whack which is too high can bounce back fine.

If anyone's stupid enough to crank up the collar and stand there watching their dog peak out, well you shouldn't own a dog.

Agree totally.

If the owner doesnt understand the principle involved in using this tool then they usually wont understand the most basic of dog training methods either.

I believe that an untrained or incorrectly trained dog suffers far more psychological harm than an e-collar dog. This method should always use positive reinforcement as well as the collar. Used effectively it's often no more than a tap on the shoulder, a direction to take notice of the handler.

Of course they are lifesavers when used to teach snake avoidance and really the most effective way to get the message through.

[Dame Aussie]

Well the dog isn't going to find it a pleasant experience but a bit of a zap is probably better than being bitten by a snake.

Pretty much the only time I would use a e-collar is if the dog was doing something that was likely to get it hurt or killed.

Having been an obedience instructor for years I am comfortable with them being restricted the way they are. People can be scarily stupid.

I agree with this.

I would prefer not to use them but for this purpose the ends definitely justify the means.

I don't believe they should be banned, but I do agree that people can be total idiots so I do think some kind of restriction is good.

[mumof4girls]

I'm having this argument with my husband now . He bought this collar for our 2 as he wants to be able to walk them off lead through the bush and have them stay a certain distance near him . Having no real luck with their recall, not 100% and they are terriers so one sniff and they are off . For Me it's the thought of how it would affect them ,but I know he would never ever take it too far ,it just doesn't sit well with me ...

Really struggling here as my heart says no and my head just doesn't know :-( we have had a few really big fights over it, he has researched it for hrs and I will admit I have not .. Probably too scared to maybe ... :-( I will read with interest this thread.

[Cosmolo]

Have someone show you how to use the e collar PROPERLY.

[raineth]

It's not hard to teach someone start too low and creep up until you just notice the dog realises a sensation. Most dogs that get an accidental whack which is too high can bounce back fine.

If anyone's stupid enough to crank up the collar and stand there watching their dog peak out, well you shouldn't own a dog.

yes but there are people like this who own a dog.

You only have to see the way people use punishments on a dog to know that there are people out there who don't have a clue.

I don't know how many times I've seen someone smack a dog after the dog has stopped doing the problem behaviour and begun actually being good.

There is even a local trainer who uses lots of punishment and yet can't time it effectively and continues to punish long after the dog has stopped doing the problem behaviour.

I have no problem with them being used correctly, on a behaviour in which more positive methods are less successful (like snake chasing, or snake curiosity).

And I understand and agree when you say that all manner of things can be used cruelly. But I can certainly see a lot of people mis-using this tool if they aren't shown specifically and exactly how to use it.

[juice]

I would get one if I could afford it to stop behavoir from one of mine, I reckon I would have it sorted in a week, its something he only does if he thinks I am not there.

can you hire them?

[melzawelza]

I'm having this argument with my husband now . He bought this collar for our 2 as he wants to be able to walk them off lead through the bush and have them stay a certain distance near him . Having no real luck with their recall, not 100% and they are terriers so one sniff and they are off . For Me it's the thought of how it would affect them ,but I know he would never ever take it too far ,it just doesn't sit well with me ...

Really struggling here as my heart says no and my head just doesn't know :-( we have had a few really big fights over it, he has researched it for hrs and I will admit I have not .. Probably too scared to maybe ... :-( I will read with interest this thread.

If your husband has researched enough that he knows how to use it effectively as Negative Reinforcement (not Positive Punishment) on a low level he won't hurt the dogs :) It's a great, effective way to proof a rock solid recall, and won't harm the dog physically or psychologically.

If he doesn't know how to use it then don't.

[raineth]

I should say that I own a living, breathing example of the fall-out that can occur to a dog who is routinely punished with bad timing.

He is better now due to lots of behaviour mod (k9pro). But he was severely depressed. He had learnt to think that the only way to be safe was to be invisible (lie down, be still, don't do anything to draw attention). Because the punishment was given so randomly and so poorly timed that he could never understand what he was being punished for.

[mumof4girls]

I think I will have to bite the bullet and be fair to him and do my own research .. I would say he knows the ins and outs of it and he has watched quite a few working dog training videos with this ..

Like every training tool it is In fact the person using it that determines wether it is inhumane or a good training tool .. I guess I have been focussing on the negative .

I'm having this argument with my husband now . He bought this collar for our 2 as he wants to be able to walk them off lead through the bush and have them stay a certain distance near him . Having no real luck with their recall, not 100% and they are terriers so one sniff and they are off . For Me it's the thought of how it would affect them ,but I know he would never ever take it too far ,it just doesn't sit well with me ...

Really struggling here as my heart says no and my head just doesn't know :-( we have had a few really big fights over it, he has researched it for hrs and I will admit I have not .. Probably too scared to maybe ... :-( I will read with interest this thread.

If your husband has researched enough that he knows how to use it effectively as Negative Reinforcement (not Positive Punishment) on a low level he won't hurt the dogs :) It's a great, effective way to proof a rock solid recall, and won't harm the dog physically or psychologically.

If he doesn't know how to use it then don't.

[_PL_]

It wouldn't be that hard to be licensed to use one, like they do with guns. Perhaps just to professionals in the training field, avoiding the misuse issue but not banning them outright.

Useful tool in the right circumstances in the right hands but I personally don't like the idea of them being freely used without a full understanding of their effects on dog behaviour.

[BCNut]

I've watched my neighbours dog start out as what you would expect from a normal, high energy border collie cross pup and slowly but surely turned in a D-D and D-H aggressive bundle of nerves and energy from one of these devices. Whether they're used 'appropriately' (which I don't believe there is a humane application for e-collars - lets put one on your neck and pump it up) or not; it's just an excuse for being a lazy trainer and being half arsed in your approach to the keeping of dogs.

Want your dogs to stay with you off leash? Use a long lead and proof your recalls in as many environments as you can. Want your dog to stay in your yard? Get your property fenced appropriately. I don't see how an e-collar can protect a dog from a snake. No e-collar can stop any wild animal from pursuing a dog.

Edited August 5, 2013 by BCNut