Atherton Dog Theft

[Rilla-My-Rilla]

For anyone in the Atherton Tablelands area -

No doubt you will have heard of the horrible abuse of dogs being stolen for dog fighting in the area at the moment. A public meeting is being held for concerned residents, anyone who may have seen suspicious activity in their area and to discuss what the authorities are going to do about it.

When: Monday August 19th, 5:30pm

Where: Atherton Show Grounds, Merrilands Hall Cafeteria

The Mayor, local MP Shane Knuth, the police & stock squad will be present.

[melzawelza]

Is there any actual evidence of dogs being stolen for fighting in the area?

[~Anne~]

What's with the questions all the time in these threads? I'd imagine that given it is a public meeting, with local government, state or federal MPs and the police in attendance it isn't someone's imagination running riot about dogs being stolen.

[melzawelza]

What's with the questions all the time in these threads? I'd imagine that given it is a public meeting, with local government, state or federal MPs and the police in attendance it isn't someone's imagination running riot about dogs being stolen.

Dogs might be getting stolen, but what I'm wondering is if there's any evidence that these thefts are for dog fighting.

The attendance of those people doesn't necessarily mean anything - if there's enough public outcry over something then they have to respond and speak to people about it. I'd assume this is it.

Part of the reason I'm asking is that I'd like to read about it if there is evidence.

[mixeduppup]

Dog fighting exists and they source their dogs from somewhere. I agree that it isn't as prevalent that social media makes out but it is happening in some areas.

[Nic.B]

What's with the questions all the time in these threads? I'd imagine that given it is a public meeting, with local government, state or federal MPs and the police in attendance it isn't someone's imagination running riot about dogs being stolen.

Yes. Police and council do not make public statements via any media for no reason at all.

Plan B will be in anytime soon.

[melzawelza]

Dog fighting exists and they source their dogs from somewhere. I agree that it isn't as prevalent that social media makes out but it is happening in some areas.

They source their dogs by selective breeding. Having a dog that is game enough to fight in a Pit and keep crossing that line despite injury and exhaustion is very hard to achieve even when carefully and selectively breeding from parents with those traits, and requires very careful conditioning from a young age - the likelihood of finding such a dog by stealing adult family pets is so low, it's simply a stupid exercise when you can breed dogs much more easily and without the risk of getting caught by police stealing.

Dogs are stolen sometimes, yes. But escaped doesn't necessarily = stolen and stolen doesn't necessarily = fighting.

Maybe here or there an uneducated young idiot might have some grandiose ideas about stealing dogs for fighting (probably from seeing it posted all over facebook by animal advocates) and gives it a try. But I have yet to see any evidence for any of the claims I have ever read on facebook or on here about dogs being stolen for fighting. In fact, I've seen articles and statements from the Police and the RSPCA stating that despite all the facebook shares, they haven't any evidence or received any reports.

Hence why I asked the OP if there was any evidence of it. Yes, I'm doubtful, but if there is I'd really like to read about it.

Edited August 4, 2013 by melzawelza

[Nic.B]

What's with the questions all the time in these threads? I'd imagine that given it is a public meeting, with local government, state or federal MPs and the police in attendance it isn't someone's imagination running riot about dogs being stolen.

Dogs might be getting stolen, but what I'm wondering is if there's any evidence that these thefts are for dog fighting.

The attendance of those people doesn't necessarily mean anything - if there's enough public outcry over something then they have to respond and speak to people about it. I'd assume this is it.

Part of the reason I'm asking is that I'd like to read about it if there is evidence.

Evidence!

Is there any evidence that 'entire' dogs adopted from shelters contribute to unwanted/unplanned litters?

[mixeduppup]

Dog fighting exists and they source their dogs from somewhere. I agree that it isn't as prevalent that social media makes out but it is happening in some areas.

They source their dogs by selective breeding. Having a dog that is game enough to fight in a Pit and keep crossing that line despite injury and exhaustion is very hard to achieve even when carefully and selectively breeding from parents with those traits, and requires very careful conditioning from a young age - the likelihood of finding such a dog by stealing adult family pets is so low, it's simply a stupid exercise when you can breed dogs much more easily and without the risk of getting caught by police stealing.

Dogs are stolen sometimes, yes. But escaped doesn't necessarily = stolen and stolen doesn't necessarily = fighting.

Maybe here or there an uneducated young idiot might have some grandiose ideas about stealing dogs for fighting (probably from seeing it posted all over facebook by animal advocates) and gives it a try. But I have yet to see any evidence for any of the claims I have ever read on facebook or on here about dogs being stolen for fighting.

Hence why I asked the OP if there was any evidence of it. Yes, I'm doubtful, but if there is I'd really like to read about it.

So they source bait dogs in selective breeding as well?

[melzawelza]

Dog fighting exists and they source their dogs from somewhere. I agree that it isn't as prevalent that social media makes out but it is happening in some areas.

They source their dogs by selective breeding. Having a dog that is game enough to fight in a Pit and keep crossing that line despite injury and exhaustion is very hard to achieve even when carefully and selectively breeding from parents with those traits, and requires very careful conditioning from a young age - the likelihood of finding such a dog by stealing adult family pets is so low, it's simply a stupid exercise when you can breed dogs much more easily and without the risk of getting caught by police stealing.

Dogs are stolen sometimes, yes. But escaped doesn't necessarily = stolen and stolen doesn't necessarily = fighting.

Maybe here or there an uneducated young idiot might have some grandiose ideas about stealing dogs for fighting (probably from seeing it posted all over facebook by animal advocates) and gives it a try. But I have yet to see any evidence for any of the claims I have ever read on facebook or on here about dogs being stolen for fighting.

Hence why I asked the OP if there was any evidence of it. Yes, I'm doubtful, but if there is I'd really like to read about it.

So they source bait dogs in selective breeding as well?

'Bait Dogs' are largely a myth. They were never used historically in dog fighting, even when it was legal and widespread, and they are typically only used now by young thugs who are simply perpetuating animal cruelty, not actually involved in any sort of organised fight ring. It has been argued that a lot of these young idiots actually get the idea of bait dogs in their heads from the constant messaging from well-meaning animal advocates that 'this is how you train a fighting dog', when it is anything but. It's simply not necessary or used by actual dog fighters.

Even if they were using them, when you're breeding whole litters of dogs for this purpose you're lucky to get one or two in the litter that are any good at actually being in the pit. They have plenty of surplus dogs they've bred themselves and run on without success if they ever wanted to use them for this purpose. (usually they just kill them, the bastards).

That's not to say it hasn't happened. It has, and it will continue to. But it is rare and not widespread at all, and like I said, typically only done by people who wish to commit cruelty, not people actually involved in fight rings.

Edited August 4, 2013 by melzawelza

[mixeduppup]

Well I know in America bait dogs/animals are widely used to test instinct.

[melzawelza]

Well I know in America bait dogs/animals are widely used to test instinct.

They pit them against the other dogs to test instinct. They aren't stealing people's pets to do it. Like I said they have a surplus of their own dogs that are useless for the pit, plus their other fighters at their disposal.

There's no point in taking the risk of being caught for theft and therefore exposing their entire disgusting operation (dogfighting is felony in the US and carries jail time) when there are many many dogs within their own and other fighters yards that can be used. Again, yes it happens occasionally, on a very small scale, from inexperienced idiots that just want to abuse animals and pretend that they are 'dog men', but it's not widespread, typical or commonly done with stolen dogs from people's backyards.

We have to remember that organised dog fighting isn't just letting two dogs go at it for a short while. The dog has to be willing to cross the line and engage with the other dog over and over again, despite injury and exhaustion. They don't want a fast match that will be over in a flash, they want a match that will go for two hours and draw large amounts of money. Very, very few dogs have that ability - even when selectively bred from lines of 'champions'. Colby himself said how hard it was to get even one or two dogs in a litter that would do this.

So therefore testing the dog on a dog with it's mouth tied and can't fight back or another animal is a pretty poor and useless test to see if the dog has what it takes to do what they want it to do. In fact it tells them nothing about whether the dog they are testing is worth keeping. That dog might be happy to go for a dog that won't fight back but buckle as soon as a dog does. Why would you use that test to decide which dogs to keep!?

Edited August 4, 2013 by melzawelza

[mixeduppup]

Well I know in America bait dogs/animals are widely used to test instinct.

They pit them against the other dogs to test instinct. They aren't stealing people's pets to do it. Like I said they have a surplus of their own dogs that are useless for the pit, plus their other fighters at their disposal.

There's no point in taking the risk of being caught for theft and therefore exposing their entire disgusting operation (dogfighting is felony in the US and carries jail time) when there are many many dogs within their own and other fighters yards that can be used. Again, yes it happens occasionally, on a very small scale, from inexperienced idiots that just want to abuse animals and pretend that they are 'dog men', but it's not widespread, typical or commonly done with stolen dogs from people's backyards.

We have to remember that organised dog fighting isn't just letting two dogs go at it for a short while. The dog has to be willing to cross the line and engage with the other dog over and over again, despite injury and exhaustion. They don't want a fast match that will be over in a flash, they want a match that will go for two hours and draw large amounts of money. Very, very few dogs have that ability - even when selectively bred from lines of 'champions'. Colby himself said how hard it was to get even one or two dogs in a litter that would do this.

So therefore testing the dog on a dog with it's mouth tied and can't fight back or another animal is a pretty poor and useless test to see if the dog has what it takes to do what they want it to do. In fact it tells them nothing about whether the dog they are testing is worth keeping. That dog might be happy to go for a dog that won't fight back but buckle as soon as a dog does. Why would you use that test to decide which dogs to keep!?

We're not talking about organised dog fighting here, we're talking about idiots with DA dogs. Sadly they are becoming the majority and not the minority and idiots will do idiotic things like steal dogs. It's a sad state of affairs and yes social media has a big part to play in putting the idea in their heads in the first place.

[Nic.B]

What's with the questions all the time in these threads? I'd imagine that given it is a public meeting, with local government, state or federal MPs and the police in attendance it isn't someone's imagination running riot about dogs being stolen.

Dogs might be getting stolen, but what I'm wondering is if there's any evidence that these thefts are for dog fighting.

The attendance of those people doesn't necessarily mean anything - if there's enough public outcry over something then they have to respond and speak to people about it. I'd assume this is it.

Part of the reason I'm asking is that I'd like to read about it if there is evidence.

Evidence!

Is there any evidence that 'entire' dogs adopted from shelters contribute to unwanted/unplanned litters?

ML you rely upon "evidence" (unless you are going by US) anyone involved with AW in Aust knows any evidence at all is non existant.

Councils are not even able to regulate basic chipping and rego of dogs in Aust!

[mantis]

Well I know in America bait dogs/animals are widely used to test instinct.

They pit them against the other dogs to test instinct. They aren't stealing people's pets to do it. Like I said they have a surplus of their own dogs that are useless for the pit, plus their other fighters at their disposal.

There's no point in taking the risk of being caught for theft and therefore exposing their entire disgusting operation (dogfighting is felony in the US and carries jail time) when there are many many dogs within their own and other fighters yards that can be used. Again, yes it happens occasionally, on a very small scale, from inexperienced idiots that just want to abuse animals and pretend that they are 'dog men', but it's not widespread, typical or commonly done with stolen dogs from people's backyards.

We have to remember that organised dog fighting isn't just letting two dogs go at it for a short while. The dog has to be willing to cross the line and engage with the other dog over and over again, despite injury and exhaustion. They don't want a fast match that will be over in a flash, they want a match that will go for two hours and draw large amounts of money. Very, very few dogs have that ability - even when selectively bred from lines of 'champions'. Colby himself said how hard it was to get even one or two dogs in a litter that would do this.

So therefore testing the dog on a dog with it's mouth tied and can't fight back or another animal is a pretty poor and useless test to see if the dog has what it takes to do what they want it to do. In fact it tells them nothing about whether the dog they are testing is worth keeping. That dog might be happy to go for a dog that won't fight back but buckle as soon as a dog does. Why would you use that test to decide which dogs to keep!?

Well said.

[~Anne~]

Melzawelza, what makes you such an expert in the field of illegal dogfighting? There is no sarcasm in my question. You talk as though you have first hand knowledge. If you aren't actually involved in enforcing the law, the act of illegal dog fighting or some other link to this area then your 'facts' are no more or less authoratative than anyone else's in this thread.

Sure I agree there is a lot of rubbish on FB and the internet about alleged dog fighting and dogs being stolen or houses being marked and I've personally pointed this out on several occasions myself online. In this instance however there is enough obvious concern for the various government representatives and the Police to attend this meeting and for the meeting to be called in the first place. There is obviously enough evidence of some description to suggest that there is something happening in this area.

I'm at a loss why you want so much to prove that this is just another untrue story.

Edited August 4, 2013 by ~Anne~

[Plan B]

Plan B will be in anytime soon.

Because God forbid more than one person talks sense about the issue.

Your last thread on this was proved to be nothing but a hoax, according to police, and you still want to push it?

It's just absolutely mind boggling that there are people aggressively pushing this idea, getting irrationally defensive of it when it's questioned, and all without any evidence whatsoever.

Rilla-My-Rilla, my advice would be to first confirm whether any dogs have been stolen and haven't escaped or otherwise gone missing. Then look at all the possible reasons a dog might be stolen. There's no use wasting your time on something that is an extremely rare occurrence when there are other, more likely scenarios to consider.

Just last night on a missing dog's poster the first comments were:

"He'll be found torn up from fighting. F*ck the brandead c*cks who would have stolen him, i hope they get mauled. Ask [name] to check her fence for stickers or paint swabs..."

What a comfort that is to the owner of the missing dog.

[Nic.B]

Plan B will be in anytime soon.

Because God forbid more than one person talks sense about the issue.

Your last thread on this was proved to be nothing but a hoax, according to police, and you still want to push it?

It's just absolutely mind boggling that there are people aggressively pushing this idea, getting irrationally defensive of it when it's questioned, and all without any evidence whatsoever.

Rilla-My-Rilla, my advice would be to first confirm whether any dogs have been stolen and haven't escaped or otherwise gone missing. Then look at all the possible reasons a dog might be stolen. There's no use wasting your time on something that is an extremely rare occurrence when there are other, more likely scenarios to consider.

Just last night on a missing dog's poster the first comments were:

"He'll be found torn up from fighting. F*ck the brandead c*cks who would have stolen him, i hope they get mauled. Ask [name] to check her fence for stickers or paint swabs..."

What a comfort that is to the owner of the missing dog.

I always knew you had an agenda (more to the point) a problem.

Let me ask Plan .B some VERY SIMPLE questions!

Do you live in the Hawkesbury area? If so, did you speak with Police as I did? Why is it that you dimiss complaints? In ANY nature? you sprout evidence, proof and facts. Where is it love???

[Plan B]

I always knew you had an agenda (more to the point) a problem.

Let me ask Plan .B some VERY SIMPLE questions!

Do you live in the Hawkesbury area? If so, did you speak with Police as I did? Why is it that you dimiss complaints? In ANY nature? you sprout evidence, proof and facts. Where is it love???

Sigh. Here's some evidence from a reputable source about it being a hoax:

"After speaking to the RSPCA media liaison officer, police can confirm that the RSPCA have not rec­eived a single report of dogs being stolen for a deliberate act," a Quakers Hill police spokesman said.

Police said there has only been one report made of a stolen dog in The Hills and two in the Hawkesbury area this year.

"We believe the stories about dog fighting in our areas is a hoax and there is no link between dogs reported missing being used for these fights,'' The Hills LAC's Sergeant Nigel Johns, of The Hills LAC, said.

"If there are dogs being stolen, their owners haven't reported it to us.''

Where's your evidence to show it's happening in those areas?

[melzawelza]

Well I know in America bait dogs/animals are widely used to test instinct.

They pit them against the other dogs to test instinct. They aren't stealing people's pets to do it. Like I said they have a surplus of their own dogs that are useless for the pit, plus their other fighters at their disposal.

There's no point in taking the risk of being caught for theft and therefore exposing their entire disgusting operation (dogfighting is felony in the US and carries jail time) when there are many many dogs within their own and other fighters yards that can be used. Again, yes it happens occasionally, on a very small scale, from inexperienced idiots that just want to abuse animals and pretend that they are 'dog men', but it's not widespread, typical or commonly done with stolen dogs from people's backyards.

We have to remember that organised dog fighting isn't just letting two dogs go at it for a short while. The dog has to be willing to cross the line and engage with the other dog over and over again, despite injury and exhaustion. They don't want a fast match that will be over in a flash, they want a match that will go for two hours and draw large amounts of money. Very, very few dogs have that ability - even when selectively bred from lines of 'champions'. Colby himself said how hard it was to get even one or two dogs in a litter that would do this.

So therefore testing the dog on a dog with it's mouth tied and can't fight back or another animal is a pretty poor and useless test to see if the dog has what it takes to do what they want it to do. In fact it tells them nothing about whether the dog they are testing is worth keeping. That dog might be happy to go for a dog that won't fight back but buckle as soon as a dog does. Why would you use that test to decide which dogs to keep!?

We're not talking about organised dog fighting here, we're talking about idiots with DA dogs. Sadly they are becoming the majority and not the minority and idiots will do idiotic things like steal dogs. It's a sad state of affairs and yes social media has a big part to play in putting the idea in their heads in the first place.

If we're not talking about organised dog fighting I fail to see how it could be happening on such a large scale around the country, let alone so many dogs in one single area.

And if we're not talking about organised dog fighting then we should stop referring to it as such, and instead label it as generalised animal cruelty.

What's with the questions all the time in these threads? I'd imagine that given it is a public meeting, with local government, state or federal MPs and the police in attendance it isn't someone's imagination running riot about dogs being stolen.

Dogs might be getting stolen, but what I'm wondering is if there's any evidence that these thefts are for dog fighting.

The attendance of those people doesn't necessarily mean anything - if there's enough public outcry over something then they have to respond and speak to people about it. I'd assume this is it.

Part of the reason I'm asking is that I'd like to read about it if there is evidence.

Evidence!

Is there any evidence that 'entire' dogs adopted from shelters contribute to unwanted/unplanned litters?

ML you rely upon "evidence" (unless you are going by US) anyone involved with AW in Aust knows any evidence at all is non existant.

Councils are not even able to regulate basic chipping and rego of dogs in Aust!

I'm not sure what to say. If the evidence is non existent I don't know how you have come to the conclusion that it is happening.

Melzawelza, what makes you such an expert in the field of illegal dogfighting? There is no sarcasm in my question. You talk as though you have first hand knowledge. If you aren't actually involved in enforcing the law, the act of illegal dog fighting or some other link to this area then your 'facts' are no more or less authoratative than anyone else's in this thread.

Sure I agree there is a lot of rubbish on FB and the internet about alleged dog fighting and dogs being stolen or houses being marked and I've personally pointed this out on several occasions myself online. In this instance however there is enough obvious concern for the various government representatives and the Police to attend this meeting and for the meeting to be called in the first place. There is obviously enough evidence of some description to suggest that there is something happening in this area.

I'm at a loss why you want so much to prove that this is just another untrue story.

I work in enforcement in an animal field. I spent a month in the states in May on internships with the two most prominent Pit Bull rescue and advocacy groups in the country, who themselves are involved in the investigations of organised dog fighting and assess the dogs and their situation and decide whether they are adoptable. One of the groups also started their organisation by going straight to the source to get their information on the history of the breed and the dogfighting world. They spent a long time talking to actual confirmed dog fighters and collecting information on the 'sport' itself and on the keeping and training of the dogs, as they wanted to understand everything about the breed. I also am in contact with a large group of American Animal Control Officers that investigate organised dog fighting and cruelty cases on a regular basis. I've also done a lot of reading on the history of the breed, just like anyone else may have done. That is where I'm basing my comments. That and the fact that I have never seen any evidence of this happening.

I actually didn't come into this thread to 'prove that this is just another untrue story'. I asked for evidence of this as if there is any I would like to see it. I'm happy to eat my words if any of this supposed stealing/bait dogs/fighting ring stuff is evidenced and proven to be true. I'm also sick of this thing being perpetuated over and over again. It hurts owners, who think that their dogs are being mauled to death, and are constantly being told that their dog was 'probably stolen for fighting' while they're frantically searching for them. It also hurts the dogs who are missing as people may stop looking for them, thinking they're long gone and there's no point.

Edited August 4, 2013 by melzawelza