German Shepherd Movement

[pebbles]

That's just my point - dogs were mainly developed for a purpose, herding, hunting, etc. before conformation shows, field trials, competition etc was introduced. Yes I can see that a slightly different temperament could be needed in some of these activities but not the total change in some of breeds' conformation. JMO.

[pebbles]

That's just my point - dogs were mainly developed for a purpose, herding, hunting, etc. before conformation shows, field trials, competition etc was introduced. Yes I can see that a slightly different temperament could be needed in some of these activities but not the total change in some of breeds' conformation. JMO.

[pebbles]

That's just my point - dogs were mainly developed for a purpose, herding, hunting, etc. before conformation shows, field trials, competition etc was introduced. Yes I can see that a slightly different temperament could be needed in some of these activities but not the total change in some of breeds' conformation. JMO.

[pebbles]

That's just my point - dogs were mainly developed for a purpose, herding, hunting, etc. before conformation shows, field trials, competition etc was introduced. Yes I can see that a slightly different temperament could be needed in some of these activities but not the total change in some of breeds' conformation. JMO.

[pebbles]

That's just my point - dogs were mainly developed for a purpose, herding, hunting, etc. before conformation shows, field trials, competition etc was introduced. Yes I can see that a slightly different temperament could be needed in some of these activities but not the total change in some of breeds' conformation. JMO.

[pepe001]

I am trying to think of a dog breed that maintains its original use and also the same shaped dogs still show. Can't think of one. Kelpies, Blueys, GSD, huskys, beagles, malamutes, border collies, labs - all very different and not really interchangeable. I know some show-style huskies can pull a sled but not really with the big guys. Actually I did know a malamute breeder who had many show champions and also raced their dogs but I don't think mals are really race dogs now days anyway compared with Alaskan Huskys. Maybe GSPs or vislas - don't know much about them.

But I guess beauty (ie show dogs) and also usefulness at the job (ie work dogs) is not set in stone (and either are standards) and everyone has differing opinions. So what one breeder strives for another will reject so everything is bound to diverge. Like already said, even within a show groups and work groups.

Nothing will change - and can't now anyway as it is too far down the track of dog breeds. But unless show dogs are forced to perform rigorous testing at the original use and if they fail they are desexed and unless working dogs are forced to compete in the show circuit and if fail they get desexed, the breeds will continue to diversify.

Just looking at the GSD, to bring the breed together the two camps would need to decide on a standard and not just words but the perfect GSD from historic or recent photos- and both head towards that. Not happening. Then decide on a test that was reasonable. That is what schulzhund was for, but I doubt many show-lines could pass, or even many work-line dogs as well. What one group thought was reasonable, the other would reject. Plus on top of this, we use dogs for many different purposes today and the work-line ones wouldn't suit many in todays environment, nor show-lines suit the working environment. I think we just need to the differences and appreciate they are bred for different purposes.

[ish]

The GSD clubs, at least the one in Vic anyway, are working towards designing a better test of working ability/temperament - plenty of things go on behind the scenes. There are people passionate about the breed who want and strive for the best of both worlds. There is a new working line male soon to hit Aus that is beautifully constructed and I imagine will be well used amongst the show and working breeders alike.

[pebbles]

Ish - that's good to hear, I look forward to seeing some 'German Shepherd' German Shepherds in the ring.

pepe001 - Don't think it needs to go as far as the dogs doing rigorous tests either way just get back to basics. Don't see why

the dogs are bred differently conformation wise for working and show - a worker/hunter/retriever etc is (should be) still a worker/hunter/retriever.

[The Spotted Devil]

pebbles - I do understand where you're coming from. With working ESS, the size of the dog can depend on the type of cover they're hunted in - so in the USA they prefer a taller dog as the cover is very heavy but where we have shorter, scrubby, prickly cover we might prefer a smaller dog (often longer than it is tall) that covers the ground in a more efficient manner and gets right in where the rabbits are hiding. Some pointers/setters are hunted on horseback - you end up with a very quick dog that ranges a long way from it's handler to flush game. Very different type from a dog who's handler is on foot.

Edited August 7, 2013 by The Spotted Devil

[trifecta]

Does anyone on here remember the GSDL herding trials that used to be held at Goulburn, NSW about 20 - 25 years ago?

Unfortunately, I never went & had a look, my dog interests weren't as honed back then :) but I believe the trials were similar to 'C' course herding.

Is there anybody on DOL doing 'C' course with their Sheps?...... I don't hang out in the training forum as much as I probably should :D

[sandgrubber]

I am trying to think of a dog breed that maintains its original use and also the same shaped dogs still show. Can't think of one. Kelpies, Blueys, GSD, huskys, beagles, malamutes, border collies, labs - all very different and not really interchangeable. I know some show-style huskies can pull a sled but not really with the big guys. Actually I did know a malamute breeder who had many show champions and also raced their dogs but I don't think mals are really race dogs now days anyway compared with Alaskan Huskys. Maybe GSPs or vislas - don't know much about them.

Nostalgia isn't so helpful. Breeds came out of land races, and there was selection for type when the registries were created and closed. Before that, there were no prohibitions on crossing types and creating new types. I would imagine that before, say, 1850, dog types, shapes, and conformation were in constant flux. Dogs are not precious antiques, to be maintained in original condition. Original condition is a myth.

Most dog occupations have dwindled to near nothing. Pulling carts, baiting bulls, and catching fish that slipped a barbless hook (for the St. John's dog) are no longer employing many dogs. Small herds of sheep and cattle are scarce. A sight hound used for game would soon be shot. Hunting of upland birds or waterfowl is hard to find in Australia. The derived dog sports: retrieving trials, sled races, herding trials, require a big commitment on the owners' part, and will never be widespread. Even ratting and hunting of small vermin are largely displaced. Pig and rabbit hunting, and perhaps livestock guardian functions, are alive and well.

We need to work more at seeing that the dogs we breed are good for the functions they will serve. In most cases, the goal should be producing healthy, well-adjusted pets (companion animals, if you prefer).

[alpha bet]

There is one standard for GSD - not a Standard for Show GSD and a Standard for Work GSD. That should be the objective of all those breeding....

The German Shepherd League set up their HD Scheme, Hemophilia Screening they set up the Breed Survey, the GSD Clubs also are one of the few breed clubs that offer confirmation and obedience training at the weekly clubs as well as Demo Teams to promote the breed in the public. Back in the late 70's they were possibly the first to develop agility training. If you went to obedience competitions during the 80's half the dogs in the comp were GSD, the same with the early agility (nowdays the fast times mean the bigger dogs are no longer as competative).

There was also regular tracking trials and the introduction of Herding. We also took GSD's from the demo team into school fetes and shopping centres to show how stable the dogs could be - This was one of the reasons the League was able to have the import ban lifted - due to the public promotion.

Perhaps the main reason for the seperation is the breeders mentioned by Pepe, these were breeders who did not work within the system - they needed dogs for just one purpose, security, that was where the money was. Hence the introduction of the high prey drive. These are dogs not suited to community living. Instead they are a dog for the specialist owner, those who want the high prey sports or security work, fine as long as these dogs are not sold into family homes, but this is not the case. The GSD regardless of their breeding is sold to whoever has the money.

The biggest danger to the breed is that it could be in danger of being listed as a dangerous breed or once again have a ban or restrictions placed on importing.

Edited August 7, 2013 by alpha bet

[RallyValley]

Brittanys, Flat Coated Retrievers, Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, GSP, Vizla, Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, Weimaraner are just a few breeds that spring to mind as dual purpose breeds without markedly split lines.

[Kavik]

There is one standard for GSD - not a Standard for Show GSD and a Standard for Work GSD. That should be the objective of all those breeding....

The German Shepherd League set up their HD Scheme, Hemophilia Screening they set up the Breed Survey, the GSD Clubs also are one of the few breed clubs that offer confirmation and obedience training at the weekly clubs as well as Demo Teams to promote the breed in the public. Back in the late 70's they were possibly the first to develop agility training. If you went to obedience competitions during the 80's half the dogs in the comp were GSD, the same with the early agility (nowdays the fast times mean the bigger dogs are no longer as competative).

There was also regular tracking trials and the introduction of Herding. We also took GSD's from the demo team into school fetes and shopping centres to show how stable the dogs could be - This was one of the reasons the League was able to have the import ban lifted - due to the public promotion.

Perhaps the main reason for the seperation is the breeders mentioned by Pepe, these were breeders who did not work within the system - they needed dogs for just one purpose, security, that was where the money was. Hence the introduction of the high prey drive. These are dogs not suited to community living. Instead they are a dog for the specialist owner, those who want the high prey sports or security work, fine as long as these dogs are not sold into family homes, but this is not the case. The GSD regardless of their breeding is sold to whoever has the money.

The biggest danger to the breed is that it could be in danger of being listed as a dangerous breed or once again have a ban or restrictions placed on importing.

Earlier in the thread I stated that the security guards I know prefer dogs without a lot of prey drive. This includes Diesel's breeder.

High prey drive is useful for sports though.

[pepe001]

Alpha, that is where I see you have it wrong. The high prey drive and the stability was there already when the Communist Germans were breeding them. No breeder put it in in recent years. The original breeders in the East up to 1989 and those in West prior to losing the war (when Germany united) selected for a dog to do the jobs defined in the day which was generally to be a human service dog. The traits selected made the GSDs into unpassable border patrol dogs for the East. It was the breeders for show after the dog started leaving Germany that removed these traits by breeding for looks alone.

I actually prefer a decently bred working line dog for a companion animal as well - and did have one. Generally, they are more stable, calmer, less nervous, and less reactive. But like any breed and any type - the breeders ethics are paramount. I will go for a confident dog any day over a nervous one. As you agree - there are always breeders who screw with what is 'right' and try to emphasise traits wether it be show breeders or work breeders. Not all show breeders will accept nervous dogs (these are the breeders I respect) but by god there was so many nervous fear biting shepherd at shows when I was first looking for a GDS in the mid-90s.

Ask any vet how many GSDs are fear biters and how many working line dogs have they seen that do this. One vet asked me to muzzle my dog before she wanted to see it. So I took him in a few times and she changed her mind about all GSDs being fear biters and would treated my dog wonderfully. And even asked for his breeder details so she can recommend this to others.

We need to agree that different people want different things from their dogs and both can exist side by side for different purposes.

[Trisven13]

Brittanys, Flat Coated Retrievers, Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, GSP, Vizla, Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, Weimaraner are just a few breeds that spring to mind as dual purpose breeds without markedly split lines.

And Basset Fauve De Bretagne :)

[Alyosha]

So the topline has been discussed, but what can GSD breed people tell us outsiders about hocks? Simply saying hocks should not be loose on an adult doesn't really cover some pretty widespread concerns.

Why do so many appear so badly cowhocked? An out and back in a GSD at a show makes me shudder. And I grew up with the breed and love them - so not trying to be nasty. But I simply cannot usually bear to watch the breed judging at shows.

[angelsun]

Most of the GSD's I see are the same. I think it looks terrible and if I were looking for one Id go working line.

We show ours....but they are strong in rear and topline as well as often have 0/0 hips and elbows. It's not about show versus working..it's about good breeding and selection versus the opposite.

www.gipfelgsds.com

I groomed a lovely boy in nature but he could barely stand due to his sickle hock problem and so far under himself in the rear. Shame really when there ARE in fact good dogs out there.

[Santo66]

There are big variations in working lines as well, some have high prey drive, some types are sharper and more willing to react and other have lower prey drive, high nerve. You don't need a mass of prey drive to be a good protection dog and some lines don't carry it.

Malinois are different, very different dogs from GSDs. They too don't need to be bred with prey coming out of their ears and most lines also don't need prey development like you would a GSD. In fact it can end badly if you just keep encouraging it. I like the old lines I have now, the IPO lines are too wound up for me.

Yes, the security guards I know that use GSD don't like a lot of prey drive in their dogs.

Many security guards can't train dogs so they use defence driven dogs who are over sharp and will at least light up or perhaps bite anyone in a passive environment triggered by insecurity. A good working GSD with adequate prey drive generally won't protect unless directly provoked without training, so they take the easy route a get a fear biter is the reason why they don't need prey drive.

Earlier in the thread I stated that the security guards I know prefer dogs without a lot of prey drive. This includes Diesel's breeder.

High prey drive is useful for sports though.

High prey drive is essential in training a protection dog to attack on command which they do for drive satisfaction/reward no different than sleeve work in Schutzhund, except the dog is trained to target the man not equipment. Fight drive in the dog is trained from an extension of prey drive where the dog fights for pleasure not fear or insecurity as in defence driven dogs.......they are also safer dogs who generally won't react in a passive environment some are quite stranger friendly unless commanded otherwise.....the problem is finding a prey driven GSD hard enough in nerve to take aversive treatment from an offender not to cause retreat or shutdown........the reason some sport dogs are no good in civil protection.

The GSD clubs, at least the one in Vic anyway, are working towards designing a better test of working ability/temperament - plenty of things go on behind the scenes

Pfff the GSD club please..........they already have a test it's called Schutzund

Edited August 8, 2013 by Santo66

[JessicaM]

My breed are papillons but I have a friend who breeds the 'old style' shepherds. Big, strong and amazing temperaments (lovely croups, and firm hocks which they can move better), I have been going along side shows with her and learning about the breed for 6 months now... I love this breed and yes you won't find very many 'nice' shepherds... but they still exist lol