German Shepherd Movement

[Kavik]

Here is a history of the German Shepherd in pictures - very interesting to see the development and see how they become bigger and heavier over time and the changing shape. My favourites are the 1920 - 1930 dogs.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Kavik

[Trisven13]

From the outside looking in I just don't see how that is an improvement

[WreckitWhippet]

And another of my girl winning Best of Breed at the Sydney Royal Dog Show

She is STUNNING!!!!

agreed and it's a shame that the uneducated cannot look past the three point stack

[grizabella]

That's a very interesting video Kavik. I much prefer the look of the earlier dogs, although that may be partly due to the three point stack which really exaggerates the shape of the dog.

Pockets, your girl is beautiful, it's really interesting to me to see what modern show line GSDs look like when they're not standing in such a exaggerated way.

[alpha bet]

For those who don't know much about the history, here is some background to consider - much is know about the early days of the development of the breed due to the fact that the germans did like to keep strict records, perhaps one of the few breeds to be able to log back so far.

Back in very late 1890/early 1900 Capt Max von Stephanitz had seen there were a type of herding dog that were used in the highlands (shorter in limb and stocky with heavier coats) and then there were the low/flat land herding dogs (longer in limb and lighter build) one of his objectives was to produce a dog who was capable of doing the job of both types. History told us he purchased a dog seen at a trial, Horand von Grafrand, this dog was the first registered GSD and then shortly after came the dog Roland....(as pic provided previously) He was not considered as perfect just as the start of breed type.....of course there is consideration to the fact that the needs of humans for the dogs in the future would change, thus the breed would need to adapt. Hence the development of the GSD - a dog who could cover 30 miles a day along the flat when heading to market with an effortless gait however the same dog could also jump and bound when finding and herding sheep thru the mountain side. Anyone who has been to Germany knows that the northern half is very flat and southern Germany is very hilly....... Another role of the GSD (unlike the role for a kelpie dog) is that they could live with the Sheep Herder on the hillside and protect the flock from larger predators. Hence why the GSD should be the size and weight to cope with this role.

As lifestyles changed and agriculture was not become the basis of community life the Capt also saw that the GSD would not have the same requirement as a herding dog - thus the development of the dog for other purposes was seen as the future of the breed.

When I began breeding and showing GSD it was not long after the import ban had been lifted (mid 70's) and Australia was lucky to have some great imports come to our shore - the face of GSD in australia now changed for the better. the lines of Ingo and Phal became big influences in those days along with many other dogs. The dogs in the 80's were strong, well formed and NOT overangulated, these were dogs who looked capable of running the miles and still work - we also had many smaller breeders who had a few breeding dogs who lived in the home and the breeders knew what these dogs were like to live with. Pups were usually raised in the home.

Perhaps we have to also question that nowdays the GSD are often living in pens on properties where the breeders have no real idea of what it is like to live day to day with these dogs. The pups don't have the social skills nor the structure to give a long healthy life. A GSD male should weigh about 36kg yet many I see are over 40kg - too heavy for their limbs as well as often the high prey drive can make them unsuitable for families.

I run a training school for families and their dogs - a GSD is not a dog I recommend to the inexperienced. Just too hard.

[Angeluca]

And another of my girl winning Best of Breed at the Sydney Royal Dog Show

This dog is stunning. I grew up with sheps and miss them greatly. I love how this dog is firm and sturdy in the front and followed by a nice grade slope and not overly Bowed but nice slight rounding. I know these aren't tech terms but as a person who isn't into gsd shows due to 'banana' backs. This looks like a perfect example of a good Gsd no show line working line statements just a perfect GSD!I truly wish they all looked like this.

I would love to see her running and playin in the yard.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Angeluca

[Akayla]

Some photos of mine. Terrible stack because this was me learning how to do it :laugh:

This ones a pup from me going through a bit of a leggy stage.

[Akayla]

and this is her mum.

[Pockets]

And another of my girl winning Best of Breed at the Sydney Royal Dog Show

This dog is stunnin. I grew up with sheps and miss them greatly. I love how this dog is firm and sturdy in the front and followed by a nice grade slope and not overly Bowed but nice slight rounding. I know these aren't tech terms but as a person who isn't into gsd shows due to 'banana' backs. This looks like a perfect example of a good Gsd no show line working line statements just a perfect GSD!I truly wish they all looked like this.

I would love to see her running and playin in the yard.

Thank you for your lovely comments and this is exactly what we aim for in the breed, a balanced animal free of any exaggeration in any area. She is a dream on the move, effortless and powerful..

Edited August 4, 2013 by Pockets

[rusty&biscuit]

I'm finding this thread a very interesting read One thing that I am still curious about, however, is how the 3 point stack came about. From the looks of things in Kaviks video, they weren't always stacked like that, and I am now very intrigued.

Thank you for your post too alpha, I found it very informative. I think GSD's are such a beautiful, noble breed.

[megan_]

Out of interest, has Pat Hastings said anything about the modern shape? I read a summary from her where she described how you should be able to draw a rectangle based on the dog's outline, however there was a statement that this didn't apply to GSD's.

[alpha bet]

With regard to the stacking of the GSD - this is a stance that the dog will generally walk into on his own. When they are moving around the paddock and spot something they will stop and look - this is the best way to see the dogs natural shape, they will usually be in a three point stack because this is the normal position a GSD walks into and is then ready to move.

In the show scene if you stack a shepherd in theory the pastern of the far hind leg should be at 90 degree to the ground, so it is always worth looking to see if the angle is incorrect the dog could be too stretched thus lowering the back and increasing the look of a low hindquarter. If the inside hind leg is placed wide of the body in stance you will also get an exaggeration of the back line and often appear more roached in the back (roach has always been considered incorrect). Even if a GSD stands four square the wither should still be higher than the croup.

In movement the dog should show strength in reach (front movement) and drive (rear movement), if a dog is cow hocked you will not get good drive, if the dog is out in elbow you would have poor reach. The video of DINGO is a good example of correct movement, one of the ease of movements of the GSD is that they have a moment of suspension when the dog is all legs off the group and moving forward with ease.

Often the GSD we see now would not have the ability to move like this, especially for a longer period of time - when you consider some of the dogs in the ring much of the fault has to be laid at the feet of the judges, perhaps they do not have the knowledge or perhaps time is limited. A speciality show has the dogs assessed individually and then groups moving around a very large arena at full trot for quite a few periods of time, if the dog has poor movement they will be passed on the line by the better moving dogs, There is minimal judging done with the dog just in stance as it is easy for good handlers to hide faults that show up in the movement.

[pepe001]

Alpha Bet , you have completely missed out the history of the DDR GSD. No saying you are wrong just to clarify with other interested parties understand that that history doesn't apply to working line shepherds. If you look at mid 1940's you will see dogs almost identical to a good DDR dog today - except some are breeding too big now and think bigger is better. If you look at dogs from the Von Forell kennel you will find those dogs. For info for others - after the war when East stayed communist and West turned democratic the breed split. East kept their state run program and bred to type of the day - that hasn't changed much even today. West started refining the breed for show purposes. Many great dogs were culled - mainly dark faced ones as they were considered too vicious looking for the ring, produced a more fluid dog, taller dog, better moving dog, more beautiful dog and mostly a softer dog. Hence why most show lines don't come in the range of colours seen in DDR shepherds - sables, greys, bi-colour, black. Shorter, stockier, straighter backed, less fluid moving, generally better bite, more drive when in prey-mode and sharper but calmer when not (mostly).

I am not sure when the first DDR came into Aus but will find out. I got my first Von Forell shepherd in 2002 and Chris said he had been breeding about 25 years (I think) so he would have started in 1975. Or there abouts. But not sure about that. Dogs didn't come from DDR as it was very difficult to remove a dog from the State run program (I'm guessing in the late 1980's or 1990 when the country was unified again.) But snuck out via other countries generally.

What I would like to know- is the blood lines of the so called 'straight backed old style shepherds'? Are these show-lines bred not to standard or working lines mixed with show lines. If anyone has one of these dogs and it maintains a pedigree I would love to see it.

[pepe001]

Here is a good website with much more knowledge than me about the DDR GSD. http://www.ddrlegends.com/nobleheritage.html

[alpha bet]

pepe001 - would you really expect that anyone would be able to give a full history of the GSD on a forum of this nature.... after all we are talking about over 100 years of recorded history.........

not sure what your point was in referring direct to me... I was just responding to someone who had asked for information on the point of the three point stack.....!!!

Side note: I believe that Von Forell Kennels began breeding Dobermans in the early 80's but didn't get into German Shepherds until later perhaps around the early 90's. He was a breeder of dogs for the security industry, connected also with Neville Williams of Von Kaiserhoff kennels - I don't remember either of these kennels being involved in showing dogs in the speciality scene back then.

Edited August 6, 2013 by alpha bet

[Akayla]

I doubt anyone here would be willing to type out the full history. Not just type but countries in general. Each country has had its own journey. Different genetic issues. Different physical issues and different temperament issues. It's so complicated!

The question of how did they get from a to b is not easily answered.

[pepe001]

pepe001 - would you really expect that anyone would be able to give a full history of the GSD on a forum of this nature.... after all we are talking about over 100 years of recorded history.........

not sure what your point was in referring direct to me... I was just responding to someone who had asked for information on the point of the three point stack.....!!!

Side note: I believe that Von Forell Kennels began breeding Dobermans in the early 80's but didn't get into German Shepherds until later perhaps around the early 90's. He was a breeder of dogs for the security industry, connected also with Neville Williams of Von Kaiserhoff kennels - I don't remember either of these kennels being involved in showing dogs in the speciality scene back then.

I was just noting that your history of the GSD from a previous post only applies to West German showlines and is very different to the working line history. Yes, Chris always bred for security, police, sch, protection and family pets etc and I don't think would ever show dogs in the ring. Why would anyone expect to compete a workingline dog against a showline dog at a show for showline dogs and why would anyone ever compete a showline dog against a working line dog in a working event? I guess you could but you would get nowhere.

Incidentally, I followed the bloodlines of a couple of people advertising 'straight backed old style dogs' and they seemed to generally be showline dogs with a bit of working put in a couple of generations ago to give them stronger colour and the back they want in the dogs they breed. I would never buy one of this type of breeding but each to their own.

[pebbles]

My gripe - not just the Shepherds but IMO there shouldn't be a 'show'line and a different 'working' line in any breed. Maybe a bit more coat glamour but basically the same conformation under the coat. Weren't the first shows to exhibit the working dogs of the breed? Humans have a lot to answer for with some breeds!!!!

[The Spotted Devil]

My gripe - not just the Shepherds but IMO there shouldn't be a 'show'line and a different 'working' line in any breed. Maybe a bit more coat glamour but basically the same conformation under the coat. Weren't the first shows to exhibit the working dogs of the breed? Humans have a lot to answer for with some breeds!!!!

I guess people will breed what they like, what they need and what wins. Conformation aside, even in working lines there can be strong splits in working ability - some are more suited to competition and some are better for doing their job day in, day out (which again differs depending on the job e.g. Labs for guide dogs, assistance dogs, drug detection, retrieving and Kelpies for yard, paddock work). I understand that some field bred ESS in the UK are super flashy workers and are highly competitive in field trials but people don't want them as hunting dogs as they don't have as much "game sense" - that's something you just can't train for but you can certainly select for. I don't mind the splits as long as people acknowledge the dogs for what they are - not everyone wants to live with a little energiser bunny like mine!

[pebbles]

That's just my point - dogs were mainly developed for a purpose, herding, hunting, etc. before conformation shows, field trials, competition etc was introduced. Yes I can see that a slightly different temperament could be needed in some of these activities but not the total change in some of breeds' conformation. JMO.