German Shepherd Movement

[korbin13]

So, out of interest, say you wanted a GSD as a pet, would you be able to get a working line GSD that would be suitable? Or would you be better to stick to show lines?

Edit: Somehow I missed pepe01's post and I see that she/he answers this!

Edited August 3, 2013 by korbin13

[RallyValley]

My breed is the only other breed that has an AKC standard stating that overreaching is desirable. The rationale in my breed being, a perfectly square and properly angled dog would have to overreach when showing full reach and drive.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I really like the Swiss German Shepherds (white), I'm not sure if they have been recognised as an official breed yet but the ones I met had lovely temperaments.

[huski]

I think it also depends on what you want in a dog and as a pet as to whether a WL would suit. At work the family pet dog is a WL GSD. He is awesome with the kids and has no where near the drive our Mals have, he also has great solid nerves which is ideal in a pet dog that will be around kids. He is still more dog than some people would be happy with, so I think it comes down to getting a dog to suit your life style. Being WL doesn't mean the dog is out of control or unsuitable for people with families. Our Mals are also awesome with kids and love chilling inside with us.

[blakkjackal]

I really like the Swiss German Shepherds (white), I'm not sure if they have been recognised as an official breed yet but the ones I met had lovely temperaments.

Yep, they have been separated a good while ago in Europe and I believe in the US too..? They're like the "pet" shepherd, easier all around but still maintaining the size/looks.

Has everyone seen

video? Dingo vm Haus Gero, supposedly the GSD with ideal movement. Unfortunately we've steered quite far away from this. :/ Edited August 3, 2013 by Hockz

[Pockets]

German Shepherds shouldn't be lose in the hocks when matured, they should be firm and move straight behind, whilst growing pus can be all legs and will firm as they grow. We see many in the ring with less than ideal hindquarters. Please don't tarnish the whole breed because of some animals you have seen.

[blakkjackal]

Please don't tarnish the whole breed because of some most animals you have seen.

Sorry.

[Kavik]

So, out of interest, say you wanted a GSD as a pet, would you be able to get a working line GSD that would be suitable? Or would you be better to stick to show lines?

Edit: Somehow I missed pepe01's post and I see that she/he answers this!

Yes, I think you would be able to find a working line GSD that would be suitable as a pet. Research your breeders and lines, and let the breeder know what you are after, and they would be able to advise whether they may have suitable pups. They are not all nutty :laugh: My GSD is working line and (though he has some health problems, allergies) is certainly more suited as a pet than a working or sporting dog. He has nowhere near the level of drive that the Kelpies have (which made it very frustrating when I was aiming to trial him!), he is calm and gentle around the kids.

[Pjrt]

I really like the Swiss German Shepherds (white), I'm not sure if they have been recognised as an official breed yet but the ones I met had lovely temperaments.

Yep, they have been separated a good while ago in Europe and I believe in the US too..? They're like the "pet" shepherd, easier all around but still maintaining the size/looks.

Has everyone seen

video? Dingo vm Haus Gero, supposedly the GSD with ideal movement. Unfortunately we've steered quite far away from this. :/

I posted that video earlier in the thread. It might move nice for what is desired by some in the GSD but I still cringe when I watch it.

[blakkjackal]

I really like the Swiss German Shepherds (white), I'm not sure if they have been recognised as an official breed yet but the ones I met had lovely temperaments.

Yep, they have been separated a good while ago in Europe and I believe in the US too..? They're like the "pet" shepherd, easier all around but still maintaining the size/looks.

Has everyone seen

video? Dingo vm Haus Gero, supposedly the GSD with ideal movement. Unfortunately we've steered quite far away from this. :/

I posted that video earlier in the thread. It might move nice for what is desired by some in the GSD but I still cringe when I watch it.

Sorry somehow missed it.

I too think even that dog is far too angulated and his pasterns look terribly weak.

[Nekhbet]

There are big variations in working lines as well, some have high prey drive, some types are sharper and more willing to react and other have lower prey drive, high nerve. You don't need a mass of prey drive to be a good protection dog and some lines don't carry it.

Malinois are different, very different dogs from GSDs. They too don't need to be bred with prey coming out of their ears and most lines also don't need prey development like you would a GSD. In fact it can end badly if you just keep encouraging it. I like the old lines I have now, the IPO lines are too wound up for me.

[Pockets]

Please don't tarnish the whole breed because of some most animals you have seen.

Sorry.

Interesting, have you even been to the Australian GSD National? Or a shepherd specialty show ?

[Pjrt]

how did a thread on GSD movement & conformation turn into a discussion on GSD temperament & working ability/prey drive?

[blakkjackal]

Please don't tarnish the whole breed because of some most animals you have seen.

Sorry.

Interesting, have you even been to the Australian GSD National? Or a shepherd specialty show ?

Not to the Australian one, no. But no GSD (Aussie or not) I've seen has had satisfactory movement. Maybe for the breed, but not when comparing to other, more normally moving dogs.

[Pockets]

Guess that's the problem when you compare different breeds and why they have different breed standards :) people that are actually interested in the breed would take time to research and educate themselves or take the time to be educated by others :)

No one would agree that a dog with lose hocks is acceptable, exceptions made for young growing pups who have not reached the firmness of the joints.

I show and breed Shepherds and I too cringe when I see "adults" with loose hocks or over angulated hindquarters

[Akayla]

All I will say is if someone is really interested in this subject do some research. There is some great reading material out there. I usually recommend "the genetic history of the German Shepherd dog".

Dogs you have seen does not make up a breed. Do you know how many GSDs there are out there. All slightly different. Even in one litter there can be a huge variation. So long as the breeder you choose selects the right animals to continue the line you are on the right track.

I think people often forget just how complicated breeding is. Choosing animals with straight backs does not automatically equal healthy animals.

I hate when people pull out the photo of an "old style" shepherd from years ago. I just open the book I mentioned and show them some other examples.

Just steer clear of extremists. WL, SL whatever. There are people in each that are not breeding healthy animals. When you choose a breeder the best test is to meet and watch their animals move. Plus I think the right breeder would also take the time to explain the ins and outs.

[Kavik]

There are big variations in working lines as well, some have high prey drive, some types are sharper and more willing to react and other have lower prey drive, high nerve. You don't need a mass of prey drive to be a good protection dog and some lines don't carry it.

Malinois are different, very different dogs from GSDs. They too don't need to be bred with prey coming out of their ears and most lines also don't need prey development like you would a GSD. In fact it can end badly if you just keep encouraging it. I like the old lines I have now, the IPO lines are too wound up for me.

Yes, the security guards I know that use GSD don't like a lot of prey drive in their dogs.

[Weasels]

I wonder what the purpose of the flying trot is. I would imagine if a shepherd dog was guarding sheep, and a predator came to attack the sheep the fastest way for the shepherd to chase them off would be to run/gallop after them.

Here's the rationale (which I don't believe, but the GSD people take seriously).

"The gait, which describes movement, is called the flying trot. The German shepherd is supposed to have a far front reach as well as great rear end extension. This produces a dog that glides across the ground, covering a large area in few moves, which is the right movement for a dog keeping a flock of sheep together. In fact, the whole visual picture illustrates the qualities necessary to do their intended work. Large, strong and fast might simply state the breed's physical attributes." from www.stevediller.com/articles/german_shepherd.pdf‎

Seems to me that kelpies do a great job of keeping a flock of sheep together without resorting to a strange gait that seems to be gliding.

I dont think I've ever seen or even heard of a German Shepherd herding sheep in Australia. I wonder if they use them in Germany. Australia being such a big sheep country, you'd think they'd be used wouldn't you.

GSD herding is different to Kelpie or BC herding - GSDs are more of a living fence. It is a different style.

There are differences in types in GSDs - notably the working line/show line differences but within those as well.

A former GSD breeder once described to me proper GSD movement (and the conformation that allows it) as the most effecient gait possible for trotting over the course of the day to maintain the flock. And as Kavik said the kelpie was bred for a very different job: to run out infrequently and gather stock that has had minimal handling over the huge distances needed for viable sheep enterprise in Australia. At the time of kelpie development, fence-building was cheap due to exploitation of the labour force (the indigenous and the poor), so boundary-riding dogs didn't suit our conditions.

Shepherd dogs were developed in a very different environment, smaller holdings with sheep more used to people and dogs. The dogs need to work in a much less threatening, upright posture since they are with the sheep most of the time; the predatory stalk of a kelpie or BC would be way too stressful for the sheep to live with. The role of shepherds (the people) was different between the two continents as well.

GSDs certainly do the sport of herding in Australia, but I'm not aware of any that herd 'professionally'.

[BC Crazy]

I don't know a great deal about GSD's but I have noticed over the last probably 10 years or so their top line is so not straight it really has concerned me. There is a gorgeous big GSD boy that lives at the end

of our street, I have known him since a puppy & honestly his top line is so exaggerated & he is so down in his hind quarters that his movement is quite inhibited by it & he does wobble about when he runs

I know he is of German bloodlines & by all accounts very well breed. So it really surprises me that they are deliberately breeding them this way to keep within breed standards. So sad if that is so.

[Pockets]

There are poor examples in every breed

As Akayhla says there are breeders throughout the world that breed for traits that are the for most part undesirable