Boy, Dad Mauled In Dog Attack

[persephone]

The AB's I have met ( only a couple) have been great temperament dogs ..and they were owned by macho types ..and came from who knows where :) they were ok with kids and other dogs ..and were not human aggressive whenever I saw them :)

A friend sent me a pic of his niece .. she is a little kid, with some intellectual problems .. the photo is of her and his bull breed dog playing on a roundabout thingy in a park somewhere ...Gorgeous photo , and AFAIK, this dog is also used for hunting purposes ,and is entire .

[megan_]

I am not, in general, a fan of BSL. There is one breed that is bred specifically for human aggression that is on the "banned for entry in Aus" list. I forget its name, but HA is specifically bred for and there have been a significant number of cases of the dogs turning on their handler too.

Do people believe that we should lift import bans on this breed? After all, this IS BSL. No BSL means no legislation based on any breed (no greyhound green collar programs, for example).

[BlackJaq]

There are plenty of breeds already in this country that are bred to take on a human intruder (or even a runaway slaves, I'm not kidding) and yes, hurt them or kill them, in their country of origin. Up until the bull breed mania hit Europe, my own breed, the Weimaraner had "Mannschärfe" specifically in their breed standard.

There are occasionally incidents with these breeds (other breeds just seem to be preferred by the media for exposure) and yet nobody is screaming to have those breeds banned. A Weimarner is plenty capable of killing a child or even an adult and in fact, a boy has been killed by the family Weimaraner in the US.

I think concentrating on controlling any breed is pointless because not only is any breed capable of violence and killing, but ignoring some attacks because the dog is a certain breed (i.e. a Lab or Golden) and then reprinting another story over and over, with ever more gory and emotive elaborations because another breed is involved just trains people to be negligent with those supposedly completely non vicious breeds.

ANY dog can harm or kill a child or even a vulnerable adult and precautions need to be taken with all dogs. Owners need to learn about dog body language and behaviour to help read their own dog and be able to recognize when this kind of thing is about to happen (or when their dog is feeling cornered by their toddler and about to lash out or when their cousin's dog is stalking their toddler and about to lug it like a pig).

Dogs are dogs and they will behave as such and if that surprises you then maybe you need to learn more about dogs.

[mixeduppup]

I just saw an ad on fb for two young ASBT crosses, 6 months old. They are for sale as they are very protective and will be fantastic guard dogs. I wanted to cry.

Edited August 7, 2013 by mixeduppup

[melzawelza]

There are plenty of breeds already in this country that are bred to take on a human intruder (or even a runaway slaves, I'm not kidding) and yes, hurt them or kill them, in their country of origin. Up until the bull breed mania hit Europe, my own breed, the Weimaraner had "Mannschärfe" specifically in their breed standard.

There are occasionally incidents with these breeds (other breeds just seem to be preferred by the media for exposure) and yet nobody is screaming to have those breeds banned. A Weimarner is plenty capable of killing a child or even an adult and in fact, a boy has been killed by the family Weimaraner in the US.

I think concentrating on controlling any breed is pointless because not only is any breed capable of violence and killing, but ignoring some attacks because the dog is a certain breed (i.e. a Lab or Golden) and then reprinting another story over and over, with ever more gory and emotive elaborations because another breed is involved just trains people to be negligent with those supposedly completely non vicious breeds.

ANY dog can harm or kill a child or even a vulnerable adult and precautions need to be taken with all dogs. Owners need to learn about dog body language and behaviour to help read their own dog and be able to recognize when this kind of thing is about to happen (or when their dog is feeling cornered by their toddler and about to lash out or when their cousin's dog is stalking their toddler and about to lug it like a pig).

Dogs are dogs and they will behave as such and if that surprises you then maybe you need to learn more about dogs.

as always - your posts on this topic are fantastic.

[sandgrubber]

I am not, in general, a fan of BSL. There is one breed that is bred specifically for human aggression that is on the "banned for entry in Aus" list. I forget its name, but HA is specifically bred for and there have been a significant number of cases of the dogs turning on their handler too.

Do people believe that we should lift import bans on this breed? After all, this IS BSL. No BSL means no legislation based on any breed (no greyhound green collar programs, for example).

That would be the Fila Brasiliero, originally bred for hunting big game and recapturing run-away slaves. There are two registries. One has tried to tone down the aggressiveness. The other tries to retain it. In the latter registry, dogs are not faulted for biting the judge at specialty shows.

And, yes, there are many people who think this ban should be lifted.

[Santo66]

There are plenty of breeds already in this country that are bred to take on a human intruder (or even a runaway slaves, I'm not kidding) and yes, hurt them or kill them, in their country of origin. Up until the bull breed mania hit Europe, my own breed, the Weimaraner had "Mannschärfe" specifically in their breed standard.

There are occasionally incidents with these breeds (other breeds just seem to be preferred by the media for exposure) and yet nobody is screaming to have those breeds banned. A Weimarner is plenty capable of killing a child or even an adult and in fact, a boy has been killed by the family Weimaraner in the US.

I think concentrating on controlling any breed is pointless because not only is any breed capable of violence and killing, but ignoring some attacks because the dog is a certain breed (i.e. a Lab or Golden) and then reprinting another story over and over, with ever more gory and emotive elaborations because another breed is involved just trains people to be negligent with those supposedly completely non vicious breeds.

ANY dog can harm or kill a child or even a vulnerable adult and precautions need to be taken with all dogs. Owners need to learn about dog body language and behaviour to help read their own dog and be able to recognize when this kind of thing is about to happen (or when their dog is feeling cornered by their toddler and about to lash out or when their cousin's dog is stalking their toddler and about to lug it like a pig).

Dogs are dogs and they will behave as such and if that surprises you then maybe you need to learn more about dogs.

Of course any breed is capable of violence.......so tell us why not any breed is used in working roles where violence from a dog is required.........wouldn't the police K9 squad, the SAS and, military just get any pound mutt and train it front line defence, because all breeds are capable right?

That would be the Fila Brasiliero, originally bred for hunting big game and recapturing run-away slaves. There are two registries. One has tried to tone down the aggressiveness. The other tries to retain it. In the latter registry, dogs are not faulted for biting the judge at specialty shows.

And, yes, there are many people who think this ban should be lifted.

Fila's who bite the judge is caused by irresponsible owners and lack of socialisation and they probably weren't desexed and more than likely were kept on a chain and hit with sticks because any breed is capable of biting the judge when raised by irresponsible owners, didn't you know that :D

Edited August 7, 2013 by Santo66

[megan_]

Thanks for your answer black jack. Do you believe the ban on the fila should be lifted, imported by anyone and bred by anyone (we have no laws re: who can own a dog and dd laws are reactive)? I think that would lead to even more BSL down the track.

As I said, I don't agree with most BSL, but I would hate to have more yobs with more powerful dogs in Australia

[megan_]

Thanks for your answer black jack. Do you believe the ban on the fila should be lifted, imported by anyone and bred by anyone (we have no laws re: who can own a dog and dd laws are reactive)? I think that would lead to even more BSL down the track.

As I said, I don't agree with most BSL, but I would hate to have more yobs with more powerful dogs in Australia

[sandgrubber]

Fila's who bite the judge is caused by irresponsible owners and lack of socialisation and they probably weren't desexed and more than likely were kept on a chain and hit with sticks because any breed is capable of biting the judge when raised by irresponsible owners, didn't you know that :D

Do some searching on Fila brasiliero CAFIB temperament test. You will find that biting the judge is expected, and accepted behavior. Judges generally know better than to touch a fila, and avoid getting bitten. But no penalty points are assigned for doing so.

"The temperament-test of the CAFIB for Filas shows us the following: the at least one year, but preferably older dog, will be put on a long lead provided with a tether. The owner has to step aside a few metres. Then, a person will energetically approach and threaten the dog with a stick and protection pad. The ideal Fila will, while absolutely still, focus on the attacker until he exceeds the distance of about 1 or 2 metres, then the Fila will attack while he jumps straight up to the person directly and wholly. The fila doesn't step back, never looks back to his owner and is not influenced by the protection pad, but attacks the person from above. Usually the person and the dog don't have contact. Therefore there is no biting involved - except when the person involved has come too near and will hold out his sleeve for his own protection. The whole exercise called "attacking" is therefore for a very short time. Only the reaction of the dog is wanted. The reaction ought to be hard, ought not to show any hesitation and has to be focused on the attacker as such. A good sort of Fila has this behaviour inbred in him. This is his character and doesn't need to be trained."

from http://www.mindspring.com/~anableps/Image%20Pages%20folder/TTBR.html

or

The feature that perhaps is at first sight the most apparent in a Fila's temperament is the "ojeriza" to strangers (ojeriza - sharp aversion). On the contrary to other puppies, a Fila Puppy is not inclined to relaxed playing with anyone. He attaches himself quickly to those with whom he lives but is, however, from his earliest youth suspicious of persons he does not know. Suspicion may make him irritated and annoyed and to some extent even make him growl with a certain amount of aggression, but yet without sufficient self-confidence to attack. In the course of his development the aversion against strangers will become more and more apparent. Already as a puppy the Fila will clearly show his displeasure if a stranger would try to touch him. At about the age of one year the Fila would attack any person unknown to him who would try to touch him.

http://www.fila-brasileiro.org/fila-brasileiro-temperament.html

Both of these are from dedicated pro-Fila sites.

You can also find some U-tube videos of dogs going through the Fila temperament test.

[mixeduppup]

That sounds like a dog that is best left banned.

[Angeluca]

Rangers seized the dog, believed to be an American bulldog, after the attack.

American Bulldogs again.........the Jogger now this one

There is no place in the community for these stupid breeds for people wanting a protective type of dog. There is nothing wrong with having a dog that offers some protective quality in fact a dog can be very effective to keep potential thieves and unwanted visitors away and help people sleep at night, but a good GSD or Rotty will achieve that nicely who are genetically safe unless provoked with a high degree of trainability......bloody Bulldogs, Mastiff's and crap like that used as protection dogs are mauling's waiting to happen......when individual dogs in these breeds have a high degree of social aggression, they are extremely hard to train and direct aggression in the right areas for the right reason which is the reason why professional's don't use these breeds in formal protection roles.

There is a place for every breed (or mix) of dog out there in our society Santo66... I'd be willing to lay odds that most people that own bull breeds aren't feral types that the media will have you believe, nor are their dogs. Most bull breeds that I've met have been lovely tempered things who only want to be your friend and get cuddles... and I've met more than a few since being involved in rescue.

What there is no place in our community for is the type of person who thinks that they need a big powerful and inherently dangerous dog as some sort of status symbol.

Not every large bull breed type is automatically going to be likely to attack anyone - just as not every smaller breed of dog is going to be calm and happy to interact with everyone either.

Those of us who are responsible owners of larger dogs can get a bit defensive when blanket statements about them are perpetuated by the media and the blissfully ignorant. The problem is that uninformed or biased reporting often results in kneejerk legislation that can affect ALL dog owners, not just those doing the wrong thing... who will keep doing the wrong thing anyway because the laws and regulations aren't policed in any effective manner.

T.

Excuse me......I said American Bulldog.....do you know what they are, what they are used for and the general character of them and yes, they are attractive to people who think they need a powerful inherently dangerous dog for a status symbol and that's why they buy them, not to have snuggles on the lounge. So we have had 3 AM Bulldogs attack the jogger and now this one which is going well given they are still quite a rare breed. Who needs a dog to jump the fence and bite the kid next door

Santo66 maybe you should dissappear off the dog forums seems your full of s#%t!!!

It's true that professionals don't use American Bulldogs, call up the K9 squad and ask them and also ask them why they don't use breeds like that

It isn't and never has been a BREED issue!

It is about individual dogs and mostly irresponsible owners..

It's a breed issue when certain breeds take a responsibility level above what the average owner can provide to keep their dog out of trouble and the community safe, massive difference in the level of control required between handling a people friendly Golden Retriever and an American Bulldog who wants to take everyone's head off. If you want a dog capable of defensive aggression, you need a breed and type of dog that is trainable in defence with the ability to cap drive.........these Bull breed mixtures are hard to train and control in aggression is the point I am making, likewise they are harder to rehabilitate so the uses of an aggressive dog in these breeds is limited.

Please tell me how my nephew's 'Bull Arab mix breed' is hard to train. This dog was scared of a pug who barked at him. he is pictured here recently at 12mths of age. this dogs parents were pigging dogs and This dog HAS NO Aggression the ONLY thing he will probably do is break your legs as he rolls on to your feet for pats. And thats if your a complete stranger.

And I personally know 2 security guards who have mastiffs as their protection Dogs While on duty.

And I Breed Goldens and have met other breeders goldies some great and some that could not be controlled They jumped, growled, barked. And I have heard of goldens snapping at children and attacking little dogs. No it is not Characteristic but it goes to say I'd take this Bull breed over a stubborn arrogant goldie anyday.

This 5 yr old boy can walk this dog is a park full of various dogs. If he sees another dog running at him he sits and looks back at his owner (step father who is 1 step behind him and the boy). This wasn't taught to him but through trust and great human-dog development this pup knows he can't run off on the kid. How is that un-trainable in an aggressive situation? And he is only a 12 mth old imagine what he could be taught.

Know your dog! train your dog! Breed irrelevant.

Aggression can taught and it can be genetic but it Does 100% come down to the individual dog.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Angeluca

[BlackJaq]

There are plenty of countries where the Fila is not banned or even restricted and they don't seem to have bodies piling up? People can get mixed breed dogs of equal size and aggression right now if they wish, so I don't see a difference, except maybe of price and people can choose to pursue whatever breeding program they like and breeds like this could easily be replicated with what is already here by somebody dedicated enough.

Of course any breed is capable of violence.......so tell us why not any breed is used in working roles where violence from a dog is required.........wouldn't the police K9 squad, the SAS and, military just get any pound mutt and train it front line defence, because all breeds are capable right?

And just for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPd2J3HFJxM

https://vitaminsforpitbulls.com/pitbull-police-dog-training/

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=6625698

Western Australia accepts Rottweilers (I forget if you said they were crazy and ucontrollable as well but they are often lumped in with bull breeds)

http://www.police.wa.gov.au/Specialistunits/PoliceDogSquad/tabid/1009/Default.aspx

Another pit:

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=6625698

Some of Michael Vick's former fighting dogs are now therapy dogs

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/special/special_assignment/story/Michael-Vicks-dogs-5-years-later/CACF_ysMe0ShlrdqUQUprg.cspx

They certainly don't seem untrainable to me? This is all google page one (except Vick dogs, I put them in here to show that your assertions are ludicrous). I bet if you actually contacted military and police forces around the globe they would tell you about all the different kinds of dogs they use)

Here is a vid of a Cane Corso learning protection work and bite work, this breed is legal here btw and its country of origin, Italy, does use them for police work.

I would continue but I think your ignorance speaks (or should I say, screams) for itself :)

Edited August 7, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Santo66]

I would continue but I think your ignorance speaks (or should I say, screams) for itself :)

Yes, they have tried and tested many different breeds in police and protection roles to make comparisons so perhaps finish the story by telling us why they didn't continue with those breeds in the mainstream roles..........in fact, the only breed that has ever replaced the GSD in police/protection roles is the Belgian Malinois.......no formal K9 units have replaced herding breeds with Bull breeds which for the most part is down to versatility trainability and consistency in working aptitude. The Rottweiler is a usable breed however lacks endurance over the herding breeds, the Doberman like the Giant Schnauzer lack in bloodlines producing required traits and character..........the rest are not even close, fact :D

[GeckoTree]

Fila's are soo 90's. Must be the name bringing out violence in people. I nearly got rolled buy pacific islanders for my Fila shoes when I was 14, damn PI's, don't trust them one bit they must have all have a violence and cannibalistic instinct bred into them after generation after generation. I swear one chick tried to eat me for my shoes.

Edit, and if anyone craps on about PI's and racialism, well it's a shit take on the same defective neuron playing field that the Pro BSL brigade come up with.

.

Edited August 8, 2013 by DaffyDuck

[sandgrubber]

Blackjaq: The thing I find horrifying about the Fila is the fact that the breed standard (CAFIB) prescribes unprovoked aggression toward strangers, and the pick of the litter, for a CAFIB breeder, will be a pup that snarls at strangers by 12 weeks. In my opinion this justifies an import ban, particularly given that we're talking about 50+ kg dogs. I wish there were a simple way to identify and restrict breeders, in any breed or of X-breeds, who deliberately breed HA dogs. This could happen in many breeds. BSL is a clumsy and ineffective way to go because aggression can be heightened or dampened in any breed by selective breeding...and may occur unpredictably in many breeds through non-selective breeding.

As for why there aren't many reports of Fila attacks. I can think of a few reasons:

1. In many of the countries where Filas are allowed, a rich person's dog attacking a poor person is not considered headline material.

2. In countries such as the US or Finland, where Filas are permitted, they are still quite rare. I suspect they haven't become popular because they are just too hard to handle, they are expensive, and for someone who wants a macho dog, it costs a lot more to maintain a Fila that a pit bull. There may also be a class thing. The Fila has traditionally belonged to rich land owners and used as a weapon to control the poor. That doesn't have a good feel in many sub-cultures.

Getting back to the main topic . . . it would be interesting to know more about the origins and temperament of the attacking dog.

[grumpette]

I would continue but I think your ignorance speaks (or should I say, screams) for itself :)

Yes, they have tried and tested many different breeds in police and protection roles to make comparisons so perhaps finish the story by telling us why they didn't continue with those breeds in the mainstream roles..........in fact, the only breed that has ever replaced the GSD in police/protection roles is the Belgian Malinois.......no formal K9 units have replaced herding breeds with Bull breeds which for the most part is down to versatility trainability and consistency in working aptitude. The Rottweiler is a usable breed however lacks endurance over the herding breeds, the Doberman like the Giant Schnauzer lack in bloodlines producing required traits and character..........the rest are not even close, fact :D

Rottweilers are a herding breed. They were originally bred to herd the Romans' cattle as they invaded countries to ensure their armies were fed. Then they herded cattle to market and carted the meat to town to sell it.

[Santo66]

I would continue but I think your ignorance speaks (or should I say, screams) for itself :)

Yes, they have tried and tested many different breeds in police and protection roles to make comparisons so perhaps finish the story by telling us why they didn't continue with those breeds in the mainstream roles..........in fact, the only breed that has ever replaced the GSD in police/protection roles is the Belgian Malinois.......no formal K9 units have replaced herding breeds with Bull breeds which for the most part is down to versatility trainability and consistency in working aptitude. The Rottweiler is a usable breed however lacks endurance over the herding breeds, the Doberman like the Giant Schnauzer lack in bloodlines producing required traits and character..........the rest are not even close, fact :D

Rottweilers are a herding breed. They were originally bred to herd the Romans' cattle as they invaded countries to ensure their armies were fed. Then they herded cattle to market and carted the meat to town to sell it.

Yes they were too......I thought under the ANKC groups that Rottweilers weren't a recognised herding breed?

Edited August 9, 2013 by Santo66

[JulesP]

I would continue but I think your ignorance speaks (or should I say, screams) for itself :)

Yes, they have tried and tested many different breeds in police and protection roles to make comparisons so perhaps finish the story by telling us why they didn't continue with those breeds in the mainstream roles..........in fact, the only breed that has ever replaced the GSD in police/protection roles is the Belgian Malinois.......no formal K9 units have replaced herding breeds with Bull breeds which for the most part is down to versatility trainability and consistency in working aptitude. The Rottweiler is a usable breed however lacks endurance over the herding breeds, the Doberman like the Giant Schnauzer lack in bloodlines producing required traits and character..........the rest are not even close, fact :D

Rottweilers are a herding breed. They were originally bred to herd the Romans' cattle as they invaded countries to ensure their armies were fed. Then they herded cattle to market and carted the meat to town to sell it.

Yes they were too......I thought under the ANKC groups that Rottweilers weren't a recognised herding breed?

They are recognized and they do very well too.

[mita]

Good on you, BlackJaq for posting all that information.... the kind that should be got to the public.

And bless the Sydney Morning Herald this morning. They have an excellent article pointing out owners (& the first owner who does the breeding) largely shape how dogs turn out. Lots of great quotes that shed light about dog bites/attacks on young children. All the stuff that usually never gets into the public arena. They quote the factors that interact, leading to dog bites/attacks, provided by the Veterinary Association. And point out what makes young children, a most vulnerable group.