Genetic Issue In <1yo Dog - Breeder Responsibility?

[Mike Echo]

Hi all,

Sorry in advance for not going into detail - I don't want to go into specifics for privacy reasons.

I have a <1 year old dog who had just required ~4k in surgery due to something not growing right. The specialist really knew their stuff, and confirmed the issue was extremely likely to be genetic. The actual problem is uncommon in the breed and would have resulted in a terrible quality of life if untreated.

The pup came from a registered breeder in Qld. Is the breeder obliged to refund some or all of the cost of the pup (~$1k)? I don't want to sound heartless, but if I bought say a laptop for that kind of money and it failed in under a year a statutory warranty would apply.

Please note I want what's best for the dog (and to keep her) which is why I paid the cost of the surgery in a heartbeat. I'm just interested in seeing if the breeder is legally or ethically obliged to assist.

Best regards,

[LisaCC]

I'm sure you will get lots of responses by more knowledgable people and breeders, but myself, I would probably only look into it if the genetic problem was something that should have been tested for in the parents of that breed, but was not. If it's not something that should of been tested for I don't see how the breeder is at fault. They would probably like to know about it regardless for the future of their breeding program.

Very sorry that you've had such problems with such a young dog

Edited July 31, 2013 by LisaCC

[Scarlet]

I know you love your dog but you made the first comparison to a material purchase.

If I sold the lap top and you had it repaired without consulting me first I wouldn't repay you anything.

I may have wanted to get a second opinion or I may have preferred to have given you a refund or exchanged the goods.

I'm not sure if you discussed this with the breeder before you undertook the surgery but I think this should have been your first step.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Scarlet

[sandgrubber]

Say, for example, the problem was hip dysplasia in a Labrador retriever. This problem is genetic, but the mode of inheritance is not clear. It is probably controlled by the interaction of several genes.The chance of getting HD is roughly twice as high if the sire and dam have mediocre scores than if they have excellent scores, but there is still a significant chance of ending up with a pup that suffers HD when both parents are screened according to best practices. To make things worse, the screening procedures are pretty flaky, and can be strongly affected by the skill of the radiographer and the idiosyncrasies of the person reading the X-rays.Unfortunately, there is no way to screen pups until around 7 mo., so the breeder doesn't know which, if any, pups are defective.So it is not reasonable to blame the breeder....and the way the matter is handled comes down to negotiation between the breeder and the puppy buyer. Sometimes this comes down to purchase contract, sometimes breeders will give refunds even if nothing was written into the contract.<div><br></div><div>On the other hand, if the problem were something like PRA in a Labrador, which can be unambiguously identified by genetic screening...and genetic screening is widely recognized as best practice, then the breeder is culpable.

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Edited July 31, 2013 by sandgrubber

[cassie]

What's your relationship like with your breeder? Did you tell them that your pup was unwell before it was operated on, and if so what did they say?

[Nekhbet]

likey to be genetic or confirmed? Did you contact the breeder before the surgery at all and discuss the problem?

If you got it from a decent breeder you probably signed that the breeder was meant to be notified as soon as a problem arose, not after. This is something to discuss with them, not on a dog forum.

[Mike Echo]

Believe me, to me she's family and not just a possession - I was talking in a legal sense (my understanding is animals are considered property).

I contacted the breeder for advice within a few days of becoming aware of the issue. They were kept in the loop the whole time, X-rays were exchanged, and the breeder agreed the specialists were people who knew what they were doing. If a surgeon who has spent a few decades specializing in similar cases tells me my pet needs surgery, she'll get it. There is no way it could have been rectified for under the cost of the pup.

Again I'm sorry for being vague.

Thanks for your replies!

e: The breeder is aware is the surgery price. So far I haven't asked for any compensation nor has any been offered.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Mike Echo

[Salukifan]

What was the condition and what was the surgery?

We're not talking about juvenile pubic symphysiodesis are we?

Growth issues aren't always genetic. Diet, exercise levels etc can play a part.

Unless we know precisely what you're talking about, its a bit hard to advise.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Rebanne]

I have a <1 year old dog who had just required ~4k in surgery due to something not growing right. The specialist really knew their stuff, and confirmed the issue was extremely likely to be genetic. The actual problem is uncommon in the breed and would have resulted in a terrible quality of life if untreated.

If it is uncommon in the breed, nor is it something usually tested for, then I believe the breeder is not legally under any obligation.

As we are dealing with a living creature sometimes we just have to accept that these things happen. I kept a dog of my own breeding who was very much a lemon but very much loved. He was PTS at 3 1/2 because of his issues.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

This one is a little tricky

If it was a faulty tv - you'd return it to the place of purchase for a refund or exchange.

There's no way a tv shop would give you several times more than the value of the original tv to get it repaired.

And if you're not going to return the faulty goods - then I don't see how you can get a refund. Your breeder may as a gesture of goodwill - return some of the money or offer you another puppy but unless you return the faulty puppy, I'm not sure they have to.

Meanwhile your vet specialist can submit the details along with the puppy's ancestry to the LIDA database at Uni Sydney so they can see if there is a breed pattern with the problem or not.

http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/lida/dogs/

[OSoSwift]

If it is not something that is known in the breed or can be tested for then to me as sad as it is for both you and the puppy it comes under the "stuff" happens catagory.

If it is something that could have been tested for and/or is well known as a potential issue in the breed then I would think that the pup should have been returned, then a refund given or a new puppy given. If you wanted to keep the pup and do surgery after say previous senario had been offered I do not think the breeder should be obliged to offer you any of the money back at all but I would offer half of the puppies purchase price back as an act of goodwill.

What is the particular condition? has it been confirmed it is a genetic issue?

[Wundahoo]

I think that you need to be more specific. Without knowing what it is that you are referring to we cant really offer you much in the way of accurate advice regarding the liability of the breeder.

Growth of dogs is affected by many things. There can be a genetic component as well as very many other factors, all adding in a greater or lesser degree to the final outcome.

You say that if you purchased a laptop and it failed under a year then a statutory warranty would apply...... but this would only be the case if the failure was due to a manufacturing fault in the laptop. If it failed due to mis-use or some other factor (eg spilt coffee !!) that influenced the failure then the warranty would be void.

Regarding your dog, generally there needs to be an "absolute" in order for the breeder to be liable. In other words it needs to be without doubt that the problem is caused only by the genetic makeup of the dog. I'm afraid that an opinion which says that the problem was "extremely likely" to be genetic is still not sufficient when referring to consumer law. For this to be applied there must be no doubt ..... in other words the opinion must be that the condition IS genetically caused.

[Christina]

Its a grey area according to specific conditions, tests available, health guarantee, what communication was between you both etc.

Small claims court can be the way to go up to a certain amount if you consider the breeder should pay something. Yes dogs are considered property in law.

Why don't you decide exactly what you want from the breeder first ?

Then decide if it is worth asking or taking steps to receive some payment.

Legally I don't know but if someone spent all that money on a pup I bred for something that may have been genetic or just appeared for no specific accident or wrong care I would be inclined to at least offer the full cost of the dog back to the person.

Very lucky dog that you could afford the treatment & obviously you love your dog very much.

[~Anne~]

From a personal moral standpoint, I would only expect the breeder to compensate me if the condition could have been reasonably foreseen ie if there were known previous cases in the lines and or it was a condition that is normally tested for. Otherwise I can't see that the breeder can be held accountable in any way.

If you want a legal view then you would have to contact the applicable body for the state you reside in.

Edited July 31, 2013 by ~Anne~

[frufru]

If the condition is uncommon I don't think the breeder could have foreseen the possibility of it happening or taken steps to make sure it didn't - if this were the case I don't think anyone would breed dogs - it is not an exact science it is not like producing something on a production line.

If you were sold a faulty product and it is still under warranty - you return the product and it is replaced. Bearing in mind that some things are NOT covered by warranty depending on the type of goods ....

[Lollipup]

From a legal viewpoint, I don't think the breeder is obligated to do anything. Some do and some don't. Was there a contract? If not, you have less to back you up.

This kind of thing happened to me. Elbow dysplasia in a border collie at 4 months of age. Specialist and vet agree most likely genetic. Parents were not tested for anything, just "clear by parentage." Breeder was advised straight away and was nice about it but no offer of refund or anything, and she didn't have to.

She is now breeding my dog's sister and doing all the health tests. I do think the issue is in the lines though.

We paid a lot of money as well and the whole process really sucked. But I share some of the blame as I should have done more research. First pedigree dog from a registered breeder and I thought I had done it all right.

[megan_]

Sorry this has happened to you. Even if something is 100% genetic, it doesn't mean that it is the breeders fault. For example, a dog can be bred from a line that has very good hip scores, and still land up with HD.

If I was told a condition is genetic, I would want to know:

i) Was there a test for it (eg TNS in BC's or PRA in poodles)? Did the breeder do the tests on the breeding stock and were the results clear (or in some cases carrier is fine).

ii) If there wasn't a test for the condition, have they bred from dogs that display symptoms of the condition.

I agree that breeders need to implement responsible breeding practices, but when we talk about living creatures there are no guarantees. There is no known history of auto-immune disease in my family, for example, but both my brother and sister suffer from severe conditions.

[Bjelkier]

If the condition is uncommon in the breed I wouldn't expect the breeder to do anything and I'd just chalk it up to bad luck. I wouldn't expect anything from the breeder except support and a kind ear.

I would certainly hope that they test their other dogs from that line though (if a test was available)

Edited August 1, 2013 by Bjelkier

[Steve]

Again, this question would never need to be asked if this type of thing is spelled out in the contract for sale .

Breeders have to explain up front before anything happens regardless of whether its something known to be in the breed or not what will be expected of them and the process if something turns up.

They need to list what they will cover and for how long and what the process is if there is an issue - the need for a written vet report is first and foremost because often a puppy buyer will hear something their vet says and mis understand exactly what they are saying re causal issues, the need of a second opinion and who the second opinion will come from, the need for stating who will pay for the vet visits and second opinions, transport to the second opinion vet ,under what conditions the breeder will pay a partial refund , exchange or pay for the repair works etc .If the dog is returned who will pay for it to travel home etc.

You cant just front up and say your vet told you something - Ive dealt with two complaints in the last 12 months which were dis proven as soon as the written report from the vets arrived - its not about the owners telling fibs its about them not understanding or not hearing all of what is told to them by the vet. You cant just get one diagnosis and agree to pay thousands of dollars to repair the dog and expect the breeder to cover it without first discussing with the breeder, whether they would pay and under what circumstances they might pay without written reports and without second opinions before you have it all done. You cant expect to get an unlimited time frame on health issues which the breeder will take responsibility for and repay you partial or full purchase price. Even if you look at it as a sale of a non living product you still don't get to say what someone told you was wrong with it, pay to get it fixed and ask for your money to be refunded for an unlimited time frame.

The reality is the ONLY things a breeder can realistically guarantee against is a recessive disorder they have tested the pup or the parents for and that the pup is in good health and not incubating a bacteria or virus when it goes home. They can rattle off what their record is , what they score and test for, what they do to try to eliminate risks but when you purchase a dog you take a living being into your home and everything about it can be impacted by its environment, what its exposed to, exercise, diet etc.

Just as a woman who is attempting to get pregnant does all she can to be healthy and know what tests she should have to ensure she gives her baby the best chance at life and cannot ever be guaranteed that the child or adult will never get sick or never need an operation nor can a breeder .

Puppy buyers need to know before they take the pup home what will and will not be covered and breeders need to be sure every what if is covered. When something happens its coupled with emotional issues which impact on how it all plays out.

How we as breeders came to a point where a puppy buyer would even consider that the breeder should take responsibility for things out of their control for an unlimited time even if it is a genetic issue is a whole new topic but the reality is we are here now and we need to ensure that our puppy buyers know before anything does happen.

What the breeder should do with the knowledge and how they should react to the news that the dog is ill is also another couple of topics.

[_PL_]

Might not be a popular opinion but sometimes even with the best of planning and taking your time to find the right dog, you can still have just plain old bad luck. I honestly wouldn't waste my time trying to argue the point on a condition that couldn't be predicted without a crystal ball.