Degnerative Nerve Disease / Disc Issue

[sas]

I have a 13 year old Dane with presumed degenerative nerve disease and/or a disc problem that could explode like in Dachies.

Has anyone had any experience of these conditions and the treatment that helped?

Swimming isn't an option, the dog cannot swim and does not like water, there are also no heated dog pools available.

She is getting massage with nerve stimulating oils, laser, acupuncture - electric works better than dry needling. She was manipulated last time she went in as well.

She's on anti-inflams and I have tramol if I need it. If she has DND, I have her on anti-oxidants such as high doses of Vit E and Grapeseed oil.

She's been on a joint supplement for a long time as well.

Her mind is still good, still happy. Within the last 3 months she's gone from walking around the block to only being able to stand for approx. 10 minutes before her body makes her lay down, she doesn't seem in pain, it's as if her body gives her no say in the matter.

[Rebanne]

try Peter Schofield. I went all the way up to see him with Fern and one treatment with him saw Fern 90% improved. Peter then went to the trouble to source someone a bit closer to home for me that he thought would do a good job. Travelling to Sydney every few weeks was not really feasible and Fern does require frequent treatment.

[sas]

try Peter Schofield. I went all the way up to see him with Fern and one treatment with him saw Fern 90% improved. Peter then went to the trouble to source someone a bit closer to home for me that he thought would do a good job. Travelling to Sydney every few weeks was not really feasible and Fern does require frequent treatment.

Did Fern have the same issue? I have seen Peter in the past with another dog but as far as my research suggests there isn't anything manipulative you can do with these conditions?

She's currently seeing Blair @ Quakers Hill who does Chiro & Laser.

[Jumabaar]

Physiotherapy- http://www.k9physio.com

no water required!! There is homework and exercises to do but it isnt like human physio- you never work the dog through pain etc. And I agree manipulation is not going to fix this issue.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Jumabaar

[Rebanne]

try Peter Schofield. I went all the way up to see him with Fern and one treatment with him saw Fern 90% improved. Peter then went to the trouble to source someone a bit closer to home for me that he thought would do a good job. Travelling to Sydney every few weeks was not really feasible and Fern does require frequent treatment.

Did Fern have the same issue? I have seen Peter in the past with another dog but as far as my research suggests there isn't anything manipulative you can do with these conditions?

She's currently seeing Blair @ Quakers Hill who does Chiro & Laser.

Fern had/has some pretty bad back stuff going on but is not actually diagnosed with anything. You did say presumed for your girl and that she has also had chiro. Fern had acupuncture etc too but Peter was the one to get her fairly mobile and pain free and now Keith ( the one he found for us ) is keeping up the good work.

[LisaCC]

Sam had Degenerative Myelopathy. He passed before it got too bad but we were at the stage were he was knuckling his back feet.

A few things that come in handy are back end harnesses to help you carry some of their weight when walking, and to help you pick them up when lying down. If she can't use her back end much at all perhaps start looking into getting her fitted for a wheelchair?

The only good thing about the disease is that it is pain free.

Its a pity she doesn't like water, it did wonders for Sam.

Also keep her warm and increase bed padding.

[White Shepherd mom]

I am sorry about your Dane's condition. Casper has had Degenerative Myelopathy for almost 3 years now. We still walk around 2km every day. He climbs stairs and can mostly get into my car on his own too. Some days he looks weaker than others but he's doing a lot better than I ever expected.

Is your dog's condition similar to DM? If so I can tell you the exercises I do with Casper.

BTW, 13 year old Great Dane? How on earth did you manage that?

[sas]

I am sorry about your Dane's condition. Casper has had Degenerative Myelopathy for almost 3 years now. We still walk around 2km every day. He climbs stairs and can mostly get into my car on his own too. Some days he looks weaker than others but he's doing a lot better than I ever expected.

Is your dog's condition similar to DM? If so I can tell you the exercises I do with Casper.

BTW, 13 year old Great Dane? How on earth did you manage that?

Her condition isn't absolutely confirmed, it's only presumed. I'm not putting her through any serious testing for diagnosis at her age.

She wouldn't even be able to walk around the block now, she can walk for about 5 minutes then she just drops but it's as if her body give her no choice too. Quality of life for her means walkies, if she was unable to go for a wander then that would be a big concern, even if to just wander up the road and back.

She is scuffing both her feet now, it was just one up until about a week ago.

Yeah she's pretty old for a Great Dane but is only a small one and has always been incredibly healthy. Always been very active, playful up until about a year ago when she had a health condition unrelated and then started to slowly go down hill.

[CHA]

Hi sas

I feel your pain. My dog was diagnosed with a degenerative disc a few years ago and we have given him all of the things you are doing for your Dane. I'd recently put him on the Rose Hip Vital, which seemed to help a bit, but now he has kidney disease so I'm juggling things a bit with him.

Difference with my dog is he is only 10kgs! so when we go for a walk, one of us is usually carrying him - so he still gets to go out and about. Car rides may help your dog with the mental stimulation.

"hugs" to you and all the best.

[White Shepherd mom]

Her condition isn't absolutely confirmed, it's only presumed. I'm not putting her through any serious testing for diagnosis at her age.

She wouldn't even be able to walk around the block now, she can walk for about 5 minutes then she just drops but it's as if her body give her no choice too. Quality of life for her means walkies, if she was unable to go for a wander then that would be a big concern, even if to just wander up the road and back.

She is scuffing both her feet now, it was just one up until about a week ago.

Yeah she's pretty old for a Great Dane but is only a small one and has always been incredibly healthy. Always been very active, playful up until about a year ago when she had a health condition unrelated and then started to slowly go down hill.

Casper scuffs his feet quite badly in hot weather. He's had bleeding pads, bleeding nails, bleeding tops of toes. I started wrapping his feet in vet wrap and sticky bandage stuff you get at the vet. It doesn't always last throughout the walk but it does greatly reduce the amount of damage to his feet. Now that the weather is cooler, I don't wrap them as he doesn't have the same issues.

We have set up a little obstacle course for him in the back yard which forces him to lift his feet in order to clear it. I'm really bad at explaining so I'll have to take a photo and post it. I also get him to stretch (upwards and both sides) to get his treat and we walk in tight circles to force him to place his feet without tripping over them.

Walking uphill is good, I take him to a park with steep sides, we walk straight up and walk down at an angle (so it's not so steep). We also go for underwater treadmill sessions which have been a big help.

He's had his ups and downs since his diagnosis, he's had days where his legs couldn't support him at all, days where his legs get all tangled and he falls over and days (mostly in winter) where he drags me down the street at full gallop. I think it helps that I started specific exercises as soon as he was diagnosed. It would be a lot harder now that his condition has progressed.

[LisaCC]

Casper scuffs his feet quite badly in hot weather. He's had bleeding pads, bleeding nails, bleeding tops of toes.

Have you tried those harnesses that have elastic and bands that wrap around his feet, there are a few different brands? We were looking into some for Sam as recommended here and by our vet.

[CavsRcute]

Physiotherapy- http://www.k9physio.com

no water required!! There is homework and exercises to do but it isnt like human physio- you never work the dog through pain etc. And I agree manipulation is not going to fix this issue.

I think Helen is great. My girl has HD and whenever she has a problem I take her to see Helen for a "tune up" and she comes good.

Would highly recommend her :)

[sas]

Walking uphill is good, I take him to a park with steep sides, we walk straight up and walk down at an angle (so it's not so steep). We also go for underwater treadmill sessions which have been a big help.

Lei can't manage up hill, we stopped anything but flat surfaces about a month ago. There's no way she would be able to manage an underwater treadmill. In a younger dog I feel there would be so many more options.

It's a hard one because not only does she have this condition but she's also ancient so some of her struggles would be perfectly normal age wise.

Edited August 1, 2013 by sas

[White Shepherd mom]

Have you tried those harnesses that have elastic and bands that wrap around his feet, there are a few different brands? We were looking into some for Sam as recommended here and by our vet.

Hi Lisa,

no, we're not ready for a harness. I now bind his feet when he goes through his scuffing stages and I find that helps a lot. Also, we've just moved to a neighbourhood where most of the verges are neatly lawned so he doesn't spend as much time walking on hard ground as he did in our previous neighbourhood.

I will get him a harness when he can't use his back legs, for now he has to do it under his own steam and he's doing a brilliant job.

sas, I don't know what else to suggest. As you say she's an old girl and things just start falling apart despite our best efforts. I was thinking perhaps you could put some obstacles in your back yard and spend 2-3 mins a day getting her past them, eg a couple of broomsticks on the ground that she has to step over, a couple of chairs that she has to walk around, etc. She has to think about where to place her paws.

[julesluvscavs]

Hi Sas, sorry to hear about your dog. We are starting to go through something similar now with our 9 year old Cavalier.

We had noticed hes been stiff in his back and legs for some time, but thought he was just getting arthritis.. so hes been on Glyde until recently.

Over last couple months its come on really bad and hes been wobbling when he walks. I first thought it was that wobblers sydrome, but its apparently not.

Took him to a vet just over a month ago and she said its just really bad arthritis. I did ask if it could be this disc spine thing that some breeds of dogs are prone too such as Cavaliers. She was quite adamant that it wasn't that and suggested a course of catrophen injections. I was relieved thinking I hope its just arthritis and we can help him feel better with this course of cartrophen, Previously i had a dog physio work on him but she couldnt feel anything sinister and also thought it was just arthritis and recommended me some other powder thats even stronger than Glyde.

Anyway he hasn't gotten worse, but hasn't gotten better either since starting the cartrophen. Hes also on some other painkillers.

He seems happy enough but wobbles as he walks and drags his legs and we have to lift up and down on our bed now.

So tonight was the last injection with a vet check to see how hes going. It was a different vet and he does not think its arthritis but this other disc thing I haven't got the info sheet atm on me so i cant remember what its actually called.. but basically he suspects hes on the second severe stage of it. He says we need to go to a specialist to get a proper diagnosis as hes not a specialist. He said they would probably just recommend painkillers and rest at the stage he is, but probably a MRI would be the next step... i just found the info sheet and this vets suspects its Intervertebral Disc Disease.. However this is to be confirmed by a specialist .

I have no idea whats going happen, im scared of the next stage ! I have read that there is an operation but its not always successful if the condition is really bad. Hes not good with going under, so im not sure id want to put him through all of that at his age.

Anyway we are going reassess the situation over the next few weeks at to what to do about it . Theres obviously no hurry to have a MRI just atm.

I dont think hes in too much pain, as he would let us know, as hes a real sook at the best of times. He is grumpy a lot but you get that with pain ( I know for myself with my spine problems)

Anyway I haven't read all the comments by everyone else in here yet, but will do and see what others have to say on the subject.

I hope you don't mind I have added in your post about my Cav condition atm.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Jules❤3Cavs

[Everythings Shiny]

SAS - We used Helen at K9 physio when Smooch had FCE - it might be worth talking to her and seeing what suggestions or plans she can come up with.

ETA - Good luck! I hope you find something that works for you :)

Edited August 17, 2013 by Everythings Shiny

[cowanbree]

One of my shelties Bree has a kink in her back which as she has got older has started to cause a few issues in that she was starting to have issues with her rear end. It was shaking all the time, starting to drag one of her back feet , she could no longer jump and generally just not as mobile as she could be. I tried a few different things but the one thing I have had the most success with is Chinese medicine. She has really responded to it and is much better. I am realistic enough to know it is just delaying the enviable but I will take what I can get

[Jumabaar]

This popped up on my facebook feed tonight by the American Association of Rehabilitation Veterinarians

Degenerative Myelopathy

Degenerative myelopathy (DM) is a progressive disease of the spinal cord that occurs in older dogs. It is generally not seen in dogs that are less than 5 years of age and most dogs are 8 to 12 years of age. It results in the loss of co-ordination of the hind limbs which progresses to weakness and eventual paralysis. It is a genetic condition that is seen a number of breeds but first identified in the German Shepherd.

The clinical signs look like many other neurological diseases like herniated discs, cancer and spinal stenosis. In the early stages owners may confuse it with hip dysplasia. Although there is a genetic for DM now the results are sometimes confusing. The test identifies dogs that are clear and have two normal copies of the gene, carriers who have one normal copy and one mutated copy, and those who are at much higher risk for developing DM because they have two mutated copies. In unpublished studies, dogs who have two of the abnormal genes are the only ones who developed disease.

Without treatment, most dogs will be euthanized because of their disability within 6 to 12 months.

The only treatment that helps these dogs is rehabilitation therapy. Therapy helps to maintain muscle mass and quality of life. In one study of 50 dogs with DM, those that received intensive rehabilitation therapy had longer survival time (mean of 255 days), compared with dogs that received moderate (mean of 130 days) or none (mean of 55 days). Affected dogs who received therapy were ambulatory longer than those that did not receive it.

If your dog has this problem, a rehabilitation veterinarian can help. Check out www.rehabvets.org for a list of certified veterinarians.

[White Shepherd mom]

This popped up on my facebook feed tonight by the American Association of Rehabilitation Veterinarians

Degenerative Myelopathy

Without treatment, most dogs will be euthanized because of their disability within 6 to 12 months.

This floored me when I first researched into DM. I'm thrilled to say Casper's been going almost 3 years since he was diagnosed.

[LisaCC]

I read that study when Sam was diagnosed. Although Our vet gave Sam's prognosis up to 3 years (this was before the IDB recurrence).

WSM, I'm glad you are getting extra time with your boy

Edited August 20, 2013 by LisaCC