Advice About Becoming A Registered Breeder?

[Salukifan]

I do understand things go wrong, I understand Bulldogs particularly can have lots of problems; they pretty much always need c-sections and are often not attentive mothers. I don't think I am naïve as to what to expect, even just owning a pet dog can be hard, they can get sick and eventually pass away. There are sad and hard parts but in the end I think the rewards out way the drawbacks. Also I understand puppies are a 24 hour commitment but I also have a supportive partner who loves bulldogs too so it's not like all responsibilities fall upon myself.

There's your first research topic. If you are interested in breeding for the betterment of the breed, bitches whelp naturally and make good mothers should be what you aim to source. i understand they are out there.

[kelpiecuddles]

something I have already settled is that I won't accept something that causes health issues just because it's the status quo or generally accepted. Like you my breed of choice is sometimes met with controversy, there was a big hoohaa a while ago about dogs at Crufts with so much spare skin they couldn't see, etc, etc. No where in the breed standard for bassets does it say that they need so much skin that it renders them blind without surgery. Thankfully the Australian bassets aren't as bad as some of the lines over there and a sensible amount of loose skin is something i am aiming for.

If there is something that is currently a known problem in your breed of choice, aim to fix it don't just accept it :)

[haylz]

It's really interesting to hear everyone's different experiences with showing and considering breeding. I definitely agree with improving the dogs health problems, that is the number one priority for me, far more than just trying to produce a dog to win shows. I would always rather breed healthy bulldog's and hopefully really make a difference in the breeds future :). I really didn't expect to get so many great replies and so quickly on this topic. I'm definitely going to be sticking around this forum.

[Christina]

While I understand many find it a problem having 2 pups together or 2 bitches I have to say its never been an issue for me. They still bond with me & people just fine & its as easy to train 2 as 1. Often had pups the same age & up to 5 bitches together without any hassles.

Not so successful with 2 entire males together, Have to be careful with them but the 11 year old has always been a bossy dog with other dogs, not people.

[kelpiecuddles]

I hope you don't mind me adding a question here Haylz but something you said got me thinking. At least to start with is it possible for a registered breeder to not have a stud dog of their own and always selectively choose stud dogs from others lines or does everyone pretty much have their own stud that they use some of the time? I know the breeder that my neuter girl is coming from does two of her own in house matings and every third is an outcross to someone elses lines, just curious what the most common strategy is there?

[Starkehre]

I hope you don't mind me adding a question here Haylz but something you said got me thinking. At least to start with is it possible for a registered breeder to not have a stud dog of their own and always selectively choose stud dogs from others lines or does everyone pretty much have their own stud that they use some of the time? I know the breeder that my neuter girl is coming from does two of her own in house matings and every third is an outcross to someone elses lines, just curious what the most common strategy is there?

Good question KCs.

The thing is a "breeder" or "kennel" is a bitch owner. Absolutely a breeder can own and use their stud if they wish. There is nothing technically wrong with that. However, it can be very limiting to their breeding program.

There would not usually be any long term goals reached if a breeder owned say 1-3 bitches and just put the same sire over them once. Where can they go from there?

If a breeder is breeding for the reasons that they should be, in most cases (and I get why on the odd occasion this may not be the case) they don't do repeat matings. What can one achieve with a repeat mating? One will get either better or worse from the 2nd mating (unlikely the same). If one gets better off spring, it degrades the first litter, if one produces worse, then it is very disappointing. Either way (except as I mentioned occasionally there are valid reasons to repeat litters) it doesn't achieve anything.

The breeder can't then continue to use that male over those litters anyway.

Plus, the likelihood of the breeders stud being the best possible match for the breeder's bitch, (unless they were able to purchase one or the other as an adult once the first one was already mature, is quite remote... let alone the stud being the best possible match for 2 or more owned bitches.

Owning studs is limiting to a breeding program, unless breeder has room and permits to own loads of dogs.

So, if a breeder has limited space and permits, one of the most practical ways to have a breeding program with goals that are reachable would be to start with their foundation bitch and research and source to use natural matings or fresh/frozen semen from only the very best males they can find to suit their bitches phenotype and genotype.

Only run on or keep what they believe has show/breeding potential. Puppies that homed can be collected and/or put on terms if they wish to use them later on.

It really does depend a lot on how big a set up and how many dogs a breeder has. If they can and do keep a significant amount of adults, it is more practical to keep and use their own studs sometimes, but like you say, they will have to outcross.

That said, unless the males are leading fulfilling lives in between these occasional, sometimes it is better for them to be in loving homes doing fun things. They can still be used or collected.

[Starkehre]

Haylz, kudos to you for having the passion and motivation to become a breeder with all the best intentions.

You have been offered lots of wonderful advice. And you are so right, the more you learn, the more you realise you don't know and still have to learn.

I will tell you my personal story just to add some more food for thought.

I have been involved in my breed for around 20 years. I always wanted to breed, but didn't start taking that passion seriously until a little over 10 years ago when my life became more suited. Around that time I decided to purchase my foundation bitch. I had been being mentored already for several years, had showed dogs a little bit and had been training and competing in several dog sports and felt the time was right, though always felt a little unsure if I was worthy of being a breeder yet. I became a registered breeder.

I was very lucky to be given the opportunity to own a wonderful bitch. She was very successful in the show ring and working disciplines, even leased her back to the breeder for her first litter earlier on. At 5 she got IMT and nearly died (another story)... 5 years later, 3 dogs later I am now starting again with another hopeful foundation bitch.

I still have not bred my first litter. It is not easy getting the right foundation, even for someone that has known the breed and been involved in the breed for quite a few years.

I could have bred with the dogs I had, but my personal ethics would not allow me to. I would rather not breed.

Sometimes dogs just don't turn out for one reason or another and sometimes you won't know until they are mature. Not breeding said dogs are some of the hard decisions breeders have to make.

Having a yard full of failed foundations is also a consideration and a good reason to start with one dog at a time. At some point you may have to decide if you are going to rehome a healthy failed foundations because of space. Or will you be prepared to shelf breeding if it comes to this? So much to consider.

You may be very lucky and your first foundation may work out. But being prepared if it doesn't is a good idea.

[BlackJaq]

I am not really looking at breeding my breed of choice at the moment, but I just wanted to point out that showing is not necessarily the only thing that matters in determining breeding quality. If I were to breed, my choice would be to concentrate on working my dogs rather than the show ring and as such, I would want to own and successfully work several dogs before attempting to choose a set of suitable dogs to mate.

I don't know if BB have any dog sports or other jobs that they are likely to be good at (I don't know that much about the breed, sorry ) but just thought this would be worthy of consideration. What wins in the show ring is not always the best quality dog around, particularly from a health and longevity point of view. Some champion dogs make me wonder if they could run half a kilometre without passing out and even though the owners might not find this to be an important thing for their dog to be able to do, I would think that at some point the quality of life starts to deteriorate..

[espinay2]

First thing you will need is patience. As people have mentioned, serving an 'apprenticeship' will be important and getting in there and owning a dog with the intent to learn more about living with the breed will be important (it really is different to live with a breed day to day rather than just being around them). I do understand wanting to have just bitches, and I did start out that way too. However, after owning two bitches and choosing not to breed either for a range of reasons (even though one was my first champion - as dyzney mentioned, sometimes making the decision NOT to breed is the hardest and the best decision for a breeder or potential breeder to make - and this is where patience and ability to look past your own ego really is needed) in truth I really didnt start to make progress until I got a male to show - and earned the trust of his breeder who several years later trusted me with a good bitch who became my foundation bitch (with a frozen AI mating with a dog located in Finland). In a way I wish I had taken that path a bit sooner (though every dog has taught me something along the way - even if never bred they have not been 'wasted'). You may be lucky and get someone to trust you with a reasonably ok bitch (more likely on co-ownership), but probably only if they have known you for a while and you are willing to wait - sometimes it takes several years - for the right one to be available. good males tend to become available a bit more often.

A practicality to consider. You get two pups. then you breed from both of them - say around 3 or so years of age - and keep one pup from each. that is four dogs you now have under 4 years of age. You breed your bitches again the following year or so. Now you are up to 6 dogs if you keep one again. and then you want to breed one of the ones you kept from your first litter. you have two bitches around 6 years of age, two at around 3 years of age, one or two at two or one years of age then you have puppies and want to keep one of them too...

So my suggestion is not to go too fast too soon. Space out the time between your dogs if you can. Start with one and learn from it for a few years (socialisation starting with puppy classes and going on from there and getting out there with your dog will help if you are concenred about your dog not learning to 'live' with other dogs). Get yourself known. Have a plan and keep yourself on peoples books for the 'right one' as you learn. If people know you are keen and you are out there being seen and doing things while proving yourself to be willing to learn, reliable, sensible and a good allround 'dog person' etc often good ones get 'offered'.

Edited July 29, 2013 by espinay2

[Salukifan]

So my suggestion is not to go too fast too soon. Space out the time between your dogs if you can. Start with one and learn from it for a few years (socialisation starting with puppy classes and going on from there and getting out there with your dog will help if you are concenred about your dog not learning to 'live' with other dogs). Get yourself known. Have a plan and keep yourself on peoples books for the 'right one' as you learn. If people know you are keen and you are out there being seen and doing things while proving yourself to be willing to learn, reliable, sensible and a good allround 'dog person' etc often good ones get 'offered'.

Amen to that. Five years ago, it took some hunting and a personal reference to breeder for me to obtan a Whippet male for the show ring. Now I am in the position of having people offer me pups.

[dotdashdot]

I am not really looking at breeding my breed of choice at the moment, but I just wanted to point out that showing is not necessarily the only thing that matters in determining breeding quality. If I were to breed, my choice would be to concentrate on working my dogs rather than the show ring and as such, I would want to own and successfully work several dogs before attempting to choose a set of suitable dogs to mate.

I don't know if BB have any dog sports or other jobs that they are likely to be good at (I don't know that much about the breed, sorry ) but just thought this would be worthy of consideration. What wins in the show ring is not always the best quality dog around, particularly from a health and longevity point of view. Some champion dogs make me wonder if they could run half a kilometre without passing out and even though the owners might not find this to be an important thing for their dog to be able to do, I would think that at some point the quality of life starts to deteriorate..

Agree with this. For me, no point in having a dalmatian that can't run for kilometres and kilometres - that is what they were designed to do. So for me, doing an endurance trial (20km run) and possibly doing agility as well will be quite important for dogs in my breeding program.

(Of course i don't think BB's could do a endurance trial with their facial structure)

[OSoSwift]

Showing isn't everything, but it is a good start. There are some exceptional dogs never shown, but as an aspiring breeder I think getting involved in something such as showing is very important, there is so much to be learnt.

I agree, I would love to show mine more but due to a new and growing business and being 750kms from city shows I can't get there much - working 7 days a week kinda put a stop to that, but I have dogs that have competed and titled in dog sport arenas. I want my dogs to look good and have the brains to do lots of things.

I just wished I lived closer as I know mine would have more titles by now and it frustrates me :)

I am not sure a BB could do too much in the dog sporting arenas but hey why not try it and see :) No reason why a BB couldn't get a Rally-O title or two :)

[dancinbcs]

I hope you don't mind me adding a question here Haylz but something you said got me thinking. At least to start with is it possible for a registered breeder to not have a stud dog of their own and always selectively choose stud dogs from others lines or does everyone pretty much have their own stud that they use some of the time? I know the breeder that my neuter girl is coming from does two of her own in house matings and every third is an outcross to someone elses lines, just curious what the most common strategy is there?

Good breeders select the best stud for what they are trying to achieve with each litter, no matter who owns him or were he lives. No dog suits every bitch so buying in a "stud dog" makes no sense unless you have a rare breed where choices are limited. In dogs there should never be a "breeding pair". In numerically strong breeds one of the main indicators of a breeder who is breeding for profit only is that they always use their own dog or dogs. Except for an initial male to show there should never be any need to buy in a male in breeds were there are plenty available. This only leads to the temptation to just use your own dogs because it is cheaper and easier. Once you have an established line you may buy in a bitch you can breed to dogs you have bred but there should not be any need to buy in many bitches either. The best breeders I know of have everything descended from just one or two top quality foundation bitches and even 20-30 years down the track are still breeding down that same line and using outside studs as well as boys they have bred themselves. Also keep in mind that puppies of either sex may not turn out suitable to breed from, let alone suitable to breed to something you planned to breed them to.