Cocker Spaniel Colour?

[Pjrt]

I groom this Cocker that for all intents is 'black' but I was looking closely at her today and now I wonder if she isn't actually black & tan, just extremely 'muted'.

If you look closely at her she has tiny tan kiss marks, and on both sides of her muzzle very faint tan right in under the black, and also has a few very light tan hairs under the base of her tail. A quick glance and you just see a black dog.

I wonder if there are any Cocker &/or colour 'experts' that can tell me if this dog would be registered as black or black & tan if you were to ANKC register it? ( I don't actually know if this dog is registered) Or would it be considered a fault to have muddy/muted markings like this.

I have tried to show the face markings in the pics. It's so hard indoors with a black dog! And yes I know the 'red' in the before pic isn't coat colour. And please don't rouse on my grooming, this is to owners request.

before grooming

[blakkjackal]

Ghost tanpoint perhaps?

[Dogsfevr]

The photo's really don't show anything but a Black/Tan can be poorly marked .

Generally the poorly mark/rich colour B/T have a brighter marking around there anus .

As the standard goes if a B/T then yes her markings would be a fault in what the standard asks for but it can still be a legit B/T .

It simply would mean the colour is there in the lines .

Just like some tri colours you will get faint tan points as its there in the lines just not strong enough in breeding for that colour

[Kirislin]

It wouldn't surprise me at all. When many pedigree standards were written not much if anything was understood about genetics. Alot of whippets and greyhounds (especially the racing greys) might be described on their paperwork as black, but in fact are heavily sabled fawns.

In the whippet standard it used to say noses must be black, even though it said blue dogs are an acceptable colour. Genetically a blue or any dilute dog cannot have a black nose although some look black. Now it says something along the lines that the nose can match the coat colour, I dont mean a fawn and white dog will have a fawn and white nose though.

[Wundahoo]

The first photo clearly shows tan hairs over the eyebrows and the last photo has the faint masking of tan on the muzzle.

I guess that one needs to know what to look for with this.

I should imagine that in bright sunlight there will also be tan hairs visible on the pasterns, which I presume are "bare" ie the hair will be much shorter over the front of the pasterns as is with most of the true B/T cockers.

As to the breed standard, it is quite open about coloursand markings. There is no description of the black and tan colouration regarding position, shape size or intensity of colour, so there really is no guidelines as to what is correct or not. It's hard to call it a "fault". In this breed almost anything goes colour-wise except for sables or white on solids.

"Solid colours: Black; red; golden; liver (chocolate); black and tan; liver and tan. No white allowed except a small amount on chest"

These faint markings are not uncommon in the breed.

Pups like this are born black but as they grow, the tan markings become more obvious and then fade with age. Most dogs with these faint tan markings are registered as black because this is what they appear to be at the time of registration.

These markings dont usually become obvious until after the first coat change, and only occasionally they may be visible in strong lighting under 6 months of age.

Sometimes at birth there are a few telltale tan hairs around the anus but these actually disappear as the baby grows and are usually gone by the time the puppy is 8-10 weeks of age. It also usually means that the faint tan markings will begin to appear as the pup grows to be an adult.

If a dog with these markings is mated to a true black and tan there will almost always be at least one true black in the litter. If a B/T is mated to another B/T then all pups should have tan points. Even a gold from a B/T x B/T mating will have tan points but they simply are the same colour as the body coat.

There is some discussion as to the genetics of these ghost markings. Some believe that there is a suppression factor present which prevents the full expression of the tan points and that the dog is a "dominant black".

If registered, the dog in the photo would more than likely have been called a black. This would have been correct at the time of registration and I believe that the dog is phenotypically black but the genotype is black carrying tan points.

I dont think that it can be classified as a poor black and tan nor even as a poor black. Colour in cockers is pretty well an open things apart from sables, or solids with white other than on the chest.

I currently have a 10 year old dog with such markings. She is registered as a black and had the telltale tan hairs around her anus when born. These disappeared within a week. She was about 2 years old before the ghosting tan was at its peak but was always clearest in bright sunlight, and not at all obvious in normal lighting. As she has aged the markings are now almost invisible again. One of her black daughters has the same faint tan marks at 3years old.

Here is a good discussion on coat colour inheritance in the breed

http://www.powerscourt-cockers.co.uk/advice_pages/coat_colour_inheritance.htm

Edited July 27, 2013 by Wundahoo

[Pjrt]

The first photo clearly shows tan hairs over the eyebrows and the last photo has the faint masking of tan on the muzzle.

I guess that one needs to know what to look for with this.

I should imagine that in bright sunlight there will also be tan hairs visible on the pasterns, which I presume are "bare" ie the hair will be much shorter over the front of the pasterns as is with most of the true B/T cockers.

As to the breed standard, it is quite open about coloursand markings. There is no description of the black and tan colouration regarding position, shape size or intensity of colour, so there really is no guidelines as to what is correct or not. It's hard to call it a "fault". In this breed almost anything goes colour-wise except for sables or white on solids.

"Solid colours: Black; red; golden; liver (chocolate); black and tan; liver and tan. No white allowed except a small amount on chest"

These faint markings are not uncommon in the breed.

Pups like this are born black but as they grow, the tan markings become more obvious and then fade with age. Most dogs with these faint tan markings are registered as black because this is what they appear to be at the time of registration.

These markings dont usually become obvious until after the first coat change, and only occasionally they may be visible in strong lighting under 6 months of age.

Sometimes at birth there are a few telltale tan hairs around the anus but these actually disappear as the baby grows and are usually gone by the time the puppy is 8-10 weeks of age. It also usually means that the faint tan markings will begin to appear as the pup grows to be an adult.

If a dog with these markings is mated to a true black and tan there will almost always be at least one true black in the litter. If a B/T is mated to another B/T then all pups should have tan points. Even a gold from a B/T x B/T mating will have tan points but they simply are the same colour as the body coat.

There is some discussion as to the genetics of these ghost markings. Some believe that there is a suppression factor present which prevents the full expression of the tan points and that the dog is a "dominant black".

If registered, the dog in the photo would more than likely have been called a black. This would have been correct at the time of registration and I believe that the dog is phenotypically black but the genotype is black carrying tan points.

I dont think that it can be classified as a poor black and tan nor even as a poor black. Colour in cockers is pretty well an open things apart from sables, or solids with white other than on the chest.

I currently have a 10 year old dog with such markings. She is registered as a black and had the telltale tan hairs around her anus when born. These disappeared within a week. She was about 2 years old before the ghosting tan was at its peak but was always clearest in bright sunlight, and not at all obvious in normal lighting. As she has aged the markings are now almost invisible again. One of her black daughters has the same faint tan marks at 3years old.

Here is a good discussion on coat colour inheritance in the breed

http://www.powerscourt-cockers.co.uk/advice_pages/coat_colour_inheritance.htm

Thank you very much for your knowledgeable & informative response :) That is exactly what I was looking for.

I do know what you mean about the colour on the pastern area and I did look but couldn't find it on this dog.....although I will try to have a look in the outdoor light next time I see her. I asked about her parents and got a very vague response!....'The father had some 'brown', or was he all 'brown' or was that mum, and one of them had black?' was sort of how it went & from my experience 'brown' means golden when coming from a pet owner. So really that could mean anything! This dog is approx 18 months I think so what you say about the ageing of the colour rings true, as I don't recall seeing the eye markings on it before. It definitely still has a few very pale coloured(more like cream colour) hairs around the anus too.

Thanks once again.