Question Regarding Dog Attacks

[RiverStar-Aura]

There's currently a thread in the News section that's got me thinking. The particular story is about an attack on a Pomeranian and it has me thinking about what is acceptable 'attack' behaviour from a dog and what is unacceptable. Where does the line get drawn?

Obviously, in the case of the poor Pomeranian, the attack should never have happened and the behaviour is completely unacceptable, however, the reason I'm asking is this.

I own a terrier and my best friend keeps pet rats, mice and guinea pigs. Kirah has shown her true colours and goes into full 'eat the rodent' mode when shown a cage of my friend's rats. In the very unlikely event that Kirah should get a hold of these rodent pets and kills them, (it won't ever happen because my dogs stay outside her house when visiting) my question is this. Should she be deemed a 'dangerous dog' and seized and euthed because she's killed or does her behaviour get overlooked because of the types of animals involved i.e. rodents?

I'm only asking because these rats, mice and guinea pigs are her pets so her value on their lives is much the same as a person's pet dog or cat. Would people or the media go all stir crazy if a staffy or 'pit bull' attacked a cage of pet rodents or would the behaviour be written off as 'they're terriers; it's what they do'?

I just think these questions can raise some interesting discussion.

Edited to clarify my question so it's not just in regards to media but to all people.

Edited July 11, 2013 by RiverStar-Aura

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

you're asking what the media would do?

They'd make out your dangerous and deadly dog had shredded your friend's babies. Max on drama, min on truth or balanced view.

[Simply Grand]

It's so tricky but this is where I think pet owner responsibilities come into play and is why i think we have such a responsibility particularly as dog owners in particular to understand and control our dogs.

I think that animals can behave like animals and TBH attacking and killing other animals is an instinct for them. However dogs are placed into unnatural environments for them more than any other animal. We don't generally take our cats or guinea pigs out in public or on play dates to other people's houses but we do with dogs and we can't expect them to be robots.

[Simply Grand]

So my point was meant to be, for some people, like most of us on DOL, one mistake and we learn and never put our dogs in the situation to make that mistake again, whether that is to attack or be attacked, but for plenty a dangerous dog declaration is the only thing that will get through to them that they need to do something.

[RiverStar-Aura]

It's so tricky but this is where I think pet owner responsibilities come into play and is why i think we have such a responsibility particularly as dog owners in particular to understand and control our dogs.

I think that animals can behave like animals and TBH attacking and killing other animals is an instinct for them. However dogs are placed into unnatural environments for them more than any other animal. We don't generally take our cats or guinea pigs out in public or on play dates to other people's houses but we do with dogs and we can't expect them to be robots.

Oh you'd be surprised. There's a lady who is often seen at the local dog park carrying her pet rabbit in her arms or with her cockatiel on her shoulder. I asked why she brought them and she said that they like going on walks but don't like dogs. Yet she's at an off leash park with them?

I did let her know that Kirah, who I'd leashed upon her approach, would quite happily eat her rabbit (no joke) and she replied that perhaps I shouldn't be there with her. Umm ... Oh-Kay then!

All the while poor Kirah was licking her lips and most definitely wanted to eat the rabbit.

The problem here is that I'm well aware that I own a terrier and don't own pets she was bred to hunt and kill. I therefore can't teach her that bunnies are friends, not food because we don't encounter them -- unless they're wild in which I don't care if she does catch one. That being said, if I hadn't leashed Kirah and she'd jumped up, attacked and killed this pet rabbit, who really shouldn't have been in an off leash park, I'm sure the rabbit's owner would've complained.

Would she be within her rights to complain over her own stupidity?

Edited July 11, 2013 by RiverStar-Aura

[Rascalmyshadow]

I think dogs that attack other dogs are a serious problem and should be dealt with accordingly and if they have killed or done serious damage to another dog should be PTS without question.

Dogs that will chase or harm other animals I think is slightly different mainly because many breeds were bred for that purpose.

My old mini poodle even having very little eyesight and arthritis in both back legs due to cruciate surgeries is still obsessed and would quite happily kill any rabbit/guinea pig she came across, yet with dogs, cats, ducks, ferrets she is friendly and social.

I think the real grey area is dogs that chase/harm cats, I think a dog that chases a cat should be managed properly and be kept well away from them in the future, a dog that kills a cat (in public not the dogs yard) should have the same outcome as a dog that has killed another dog.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Rascalmyshadow

[Boronia]

It's so tricky but this is where I think pet owner responsibilities come into play and is why i think we have such a responsibility particularly as dog owners in particular to understand and control our dogs.

I think that animals can behave like animals and TBH attacking and killing other animals is an instinct for them. However dogs are placed into unnatural environments for them more than any other animal. We don't generally take our cats or guinea pigs out in public or on play dates to other people's houses but we do with dogs and we can't expect them to be robots.

Oh you'd be surprised. There's a lady who is often seen at the local dog park carrying her pet rabbit in her arms or with her cockatiel on her shoulder. I asked why she brought them and she said that they like going on walks but don't like dogs. Yet she's at an off leash park with them?

I did let her know that Kirah, who I'd leashed upon her approach, would quite happily eat her rabbit (no joke) and she replied that perhaps I shouldn't be there with her. Umm ... Oh-Kay then!

All the while poor Kirah was licking her lips and most definitely wanted to eat the rabbit.

The problem here is that I'm well aware that I own a terrier and don't own pets she was bred to hunt and kill. I therefore can't teach her that bunnies are friends, not food because we don't encounter them -- unless they're wild in which I don't care if she does catch one. That being said, if I hadn't leashed Kirah and she'd jumped up, attacked and killed this pet rabbit, who really shouldn't have been in an off leash park, I'm sure the rabbit's owner would've complained.

Would she be within her rights to complain over her own stupidity?

Good God! A rabbit in the dog park! it'd be one dead bunny with my three and your Kira RS-A What could she have been thinking, it beggers belief.

[tdierikx]

I'd say it depends on whether the person who owned the rodents decided to complain to the authorities/media about a dog attacking their pet rodents.

I don't want to sound judgemental here, but if my dogs showed intent towards another friend's small pets, I'd probably not take my dogs to that friend's house. It only takes a momentary lapse of judgement and disaster could happen - then bye-bye friendship, etc...

Unfortunately, society has decided that dogs out in public MUST be completely bomb-proof - they are not allowed to show any form of aggression (or even over-friendliness for that matter) in any circumstance - for fear of upsetting someone or something... *sigh*

T.

[Nic.B]

There are a lot of variables....

In terms of guinea pigs, chooks or rabbits etc, there is a huge difference between a dog entering someones yard and killing other peoples small pets, than the situation you described above (the idiot owner of the rabbit and the bird).

Attacks upon other dogs is always taken very seriously, and needs to be IMO.

I have met dogs at my local shelter who have been impounded as they have killed chooks or a guinea pig/rabbit.

If they have entered someone elses property to do so, and the owner of that property puts in a complaint, the dog may be impounded.

Generally speaking these dogs are allowed to go home with 'rules" and may have a nuisance order placed upon them.

If they have entered a property to kill a cat, it is considered more serious.

Keep in mind also that each council area have different Bi Laws and Policies.

[sandgrubber]

Killing vermin is a time-honored occupation for dogs.

In my family, we've all encouraged our dogs to kill rats and mice, and to eat them.

This may spill over to killing wild rabbits or wood chucks (larger rodent, much-hated by farmers). No problem. It may not be a nice way to go, but it's less cruel than setting out rat/mouse poison. Killing vermin MUST not be allowed to spill over to killing chickens, chasing sheep or horses, etc. I'm not a particularly talented dog trainer, but keeping prey drive restricted to vermin has not been a difficult thing to teach with any dog I've owned.

The dog park I go to has a sign up that says "Fastest Squirrels in Alachua County". A large fraction of all dogs chase squirrels, and the sight hounds occasionally catch them. Natural selection. Squirrels get faster and more dog wary. We have a big local AR crowd. Never heard any complaints about dogs going for vermin.

[raineth]

Taking a rabbit to a dog park is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. It is really very worthy of the head banging emoticon.

[Sandra777]

Taking a rabbit to a dog park is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. It is really very worthy of the head banging emoticon.

Right up there with the woman who walked her ferret around on a leash at a dog show.... around the terrier ring. Some people are too stupid to remember to breathe.

My dogs would definitely take on pet rats, guinea pigs, rabbits. Simple solution is we don't have these small animals in our house and if I was friends with someone who had them my dogs would not go there.

Plenty of media stories about small pets being killed by dogs - usually accompanied by pictures of ripped open cages and crying children. No different to me than the story of the dog going on to someone else's property and killing the Pomeranian - your pets should always be safe on your own property a) because your fences should be good enough to keep them safe and b) because other people's pets shouldn't be roaming around - that includes dogs AND cats!

Edited July 11, 2013 by Sandra777

[Steph M]

I was thinking about this yesterday. Gus had a bird (one of those awful little miner bird things) and jury is out whether the cat killed it or he did, but given his current level of stealth I'm not so convinced it was him. He can't work out his feet so well, but regardless.

Running on the assumption he killed it, what do you do? what would be my responsibilities as a pet owner here? I can't well stop him going out into his own yard when we're not home, and nor would I want to, so what do you do?

I felt awful regardless, the cat is a total bugger. Won't use a litter tray, only likes to go in the yard, behaves like a gem then when we get complacent he'll snitch a bird or bring a mouse in.

Never had to think about the dog catching birds though.

[Salukifan]

I was thinking about this yesterday. Gus had a bird (one of those awful little miner bird things) and jury is out whether the cat killed it or he did, but given his current level of stealth I'm not so convinced it was him. He can't work out his feet so well, but regardless.

Running on the assumption he killed it, what do you do? what would be my responsibilities as a pet owner here? I can't well stop him going out into his own yard when we're not home, and nor would I want to, so what do you do?

I felt awful regardless, the cat is a total bugger. Won't use a litter tray, only likes to go in the yard, behaves like a gem then when we get complacent he'll snitch a bird or bring a mouse in.

Never had to think about the dog catching birds though.

Congratulate my dog for eliminating a member of a pest species that drives native birds out of habitat and move on. Ditto for rats and mice - they're fulfililng a function they've performed for millenia.

We don't live in a Disney movie and dogs are predatory pack animals. As responsible owners, it is our job to ensure that our dogs don't present a danger to people, pets or native species but no amount of vigilance will control a dog's drives when you are not there. That is way safe confinement and an acceptance that dogs WILL kill small animals should be part of dog ownership. If you have a dog aggressive dog, then the bar for responsible containment goes even higher.

Never get how people can throw their hands up in horror when a dog kills a chook or a guinea pig - they're carnivores for Pete's sake. : Separation is the only way to guarantee the smaller pets' safety. Ditto for tree changers who are aghast when their roaming pet dog ends up shot dead by a farmer. Get real.

As for the media? They'll print want sells. "Responsible journalism" is an oxymoron these days.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Mummamia]

Agree with comment to simply not take your dogs to your friends place... All part of responsible dog ownership...

A few years back the regulars from my dog park and myself stood, stared and commented in total disbelief at the woman who brought her new kitten to the dog park...

[Rebanne]

I own a terrier and my best friend keeps pet rats, mice and guinea pigs. Kirah has shown her true colours and goes into full 'eat the rodent' mode when shown a cage of my friend's rats. In the very unlikely event that Kirah should get a hold of these rodent pets and kills them, (it won't ever happen because my dogs stay outside her house when visiting) my question is this. Should she be deemed a 'dangerous dog' and seized and euthed because she's killed or does her behaviour get overlooked because of the types of animals involved i.e. rodents?

why do you tease your dog and why does your friend allow her pets to be terrorised is my question?

if your dog came onto my property and broke into my pets cage, in the house or yard, yeah I'd be screaming for blood. Same as if my greyhound went next door and killed their pet rabbit. Breed does not allow your dog the right to seek out and kill other peoples pets. If pet rat/rabbit/cat trespassed onto dogs property then so be it, I'd be sad my dog killed, but I had them contained, the owners of the interloper didn't.

[Steph M]

Congratulate my dog for eliminating a member of a pest species that drives native birds out of habitat and move on.

That was my point to my OH but he was pretty traumatised haha.

He might be a bit of a softie, but they are awful, awful things.

[Dame Aussie]

I have rats and my dogs aren’t allowed near them unless I’m there and they’re in their cage.

I would imagine most people wouldn’t value a rat as highly as another dog, but some would, so yes, it is just as bad for the owner.

However, having said that, I don’t believe it makes the dog “aggressive” or a “bad” dog. It’s natural behaviour.

People generally believe dogs should be friendly with other dogs, but probably not with rats…...I think that’s the main difference.

[Rozzie]

I own a terrier and my best friend keeps pet rats, mice and guinea pigs. Kirah has shown her true colours and goes into full 'eat the rodent' mode when shown a cage of my friend's rats. In the very unlikely event that Kirah should get a hold of these rodent pets and kills them, (it won't ever happen because my dogs stay outside her house when visiting) my question is this. Should she be deemed a 'dangerous dog' and seized and euthed because she's killed or does her behaviour get overlooked because of the types of animals involved i.e. rodents?

why do you tease your dog and why does your friend allow her pets to be terrorised is my question?

if your dog came onto my property and broke into my pets cage, in the house or yard, yeah I'd be screaming for blood. Same as if my greyhound went next door and killed their pet rabbit. Breed does not allow your dog the right to seek out and kill other peoples pets. If pet rat/rabbit/cat trespassed onto dogs property then so be it, I'd be sad my dog killed, but I had them contained, the owners of the interloper didn't.

This

[BlackJaq]

I think it is always the owner's responsibility to contain, manage and control their dog.

So, regardless of what kind of animal is being targeted, if the animal is on my property then that is though luck, including dogs. I would certainly not kill my own dog for harming a strange dog that wandered onto my property.

If the animal is in public or on its own property, then it is MY responsibility to make sure my dog does not harm it.

In saying that though, rodents and rabbits and yes, even cats, are pests and I would not be upset if my dog killed a feral one who crossed her path whilst we are out hunting (which can be on other people's property, with permission of course).

Also, any dog or cat that enters MY property will be shot, whether it actually got around to killing my poultry or whatever or not.

I don't really think there is all that much grey area here and I am wondering what made you wonder? Of course it would not be ok for you to bring your terrier to your friend's place and create a situation where your dog could kill her pets, and controlling your dog is your responsibility, regardless of your friend's choice in pets.

Edited July 12, 2013 by BlackJaq